Ugh! Why can't they all say the same thing!

Tepelus · Apr 1, 2013

I've been stuck on writing book two of my series because of information I need to continue on has been a challenge to find on this nugget of history I've been researching, and when I do find some info, it's either not enough or what little I do find contradicts other information. I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the 1485 Siege of Vienna, primarily, what battles took place where and when and how the battle was fought before I can continue, and the best information I found on it is in a book I have called The Raven King, but the information in that book doesn't exactly coincide with the little information I found on the internet. I like research when I can easily find what I'm looking for, and when I don't I get frustrated. Since this is an Historical Fantasy, I suppose I can just mesh the information I do have together some how and make up how the battle took place, but it'll bother me if I don't get it right, or at least close to right. There's all sorts of info on the 1683 Siege of Vienna, but little on the 1485 Hungarian siege. :gaah

gothicangel · Apr 1, 2013

Tepelus said:
I've been stuck on writing book two of my series because of information I need to continue on has been a challenge to find on this nugget of history I've been researching, and when I do find some info, it's either not enough or what little I do find contradicts other information. I'm trying to find out as much as I can about the 1485 Siege of Vienna, primarily, what battles took place where and when and how the battle was fought before I can continue, and the best information I found on it is in a book I have called The Raven King, but the information in that book doesn't exactly coincide with the little information I found on the internet. I like research when I can easily find what I'm looking for, and when I don't I get frustrated. Since this is an Historical Fantasy, I suppose I can just mesh the information I do have together some how and make up how the battle took place, but it'll bother me if I don't get it right, or at least close to right. There's all sorts of info on the 1683 Siege of Vienna, but little on the 1485 Hungarian siege.

For me, this is where Historical Fiction comes into it's own. It's the gaps in the history that we can explore when historians and archaeologists fail. I think you have a great opportunity.

Perhaps you could hunt out an expert in your time period at a university? They might be able to help.

angeliz2k · Apr 1, 2013

I like your approach (trying to get all the information possible). Even with historical fantasy, I think that's the right attitude. (On a side note, a historical fantasy set in Vienna 1485 sounds intriguing.)

Have you been able to dig up primary sources? The book you link to appears to be secondary. Of course, there are probably a few problems with trying to get primary sources: 1) the originals aren't going to be in English, obviously, and 2) it might be a LOT of work for a historical fantasy. BUT you might find answers. I've looked into primary material on my eras, but it isn't hard to find or read 19th-century American material, and only slightly more difficult to find and read 18th-century French material.

If the available resources fail you . . . well, it's your prerogative to fill in the gaps in the historical record. That's part of/most of the fun.

benbenberi · Apr 1, 2013

This is probably one of those topics where you'll need to get into the specialist literature to find what you need. I'd do some searching in Google Scholar, for one thing, and also research around related topics to find out who's working in the general field currently that you might contact with your questions, as gothicangel suggested. Also, you might contact the U Michigan library (or the local equivalent if you're not actually still in Michigan) for bibliographic/reference assistance - librarians love to help people find information!

Sad but true, the Internet can only help so much in historical research.

Siri Kirpal · Apr 1, 2013

Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

When I was working on my Sikhism book, there were several contradictory stories. I took usually took the one from the most reliable source. And unfortunately, you usually won't be able to tell which is which on the internet.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal

Shakesbear · Apr 1, 2013

Have you thought of contacting Vienna University? there may be a research student there who is covering your area of interest.http://www.univie.ac.at/en/research/
They have an excellent library http://bibliothek.univie.ac.at/english/

Tepelus · Apr 1, 2013

Hmm, never thought to contact the University of Vienna, or its library. That's a good idea, if I can get someone to answer my email. I'm going to go to the local library here tomorrow and see if they have anything there that might give me some answers, but being that it's a small town library I have my doubts I'll find anything, so I'll go there with the mindset that maybe they'll have contacts. Contacting U of M is definitely an idea, again, if I can get a hold of someone. Thanks!

benbenberi · Apr 1, 2013

Another place you might look to get contacts & info is H-Net -- they have a large number of discussion lists for historians & other academic types on various topics, and one or more of them might be useful for you. Given your topic, you may also want to check out the academic list for medieval topics, Mediev-L -- you have to subscribe to get into their archive, but that's easy enough to do.

gothicangel · Apr 2, 2013

Tepelus said:
Hmm, never thought to contact the University of Vienna, or its library. That's a good idea, if I can get someone to answer my email. I'm going to go to the local library here tomorrow and see if they have anything there that might give me some answers, but being that it's a small town library I have my doubts I'll find anything, so I'll go there with the mindset that maybe they'll have contacts. Contacting U of M is definitely an idea, again, if I can get a hold of someone. Thanks!

Send the email to the departmental secretary. She'll either pass it on to teaching staff, or email your request to the post-grad students.

Tepelus · Apr 2, 2013

Thanks, gothicangel, I'll type up a letter and send it to them. Thanks everyone who has helped me.

Radzeer · Apr 2, 2013

The siege started on January 29. The strategy of Matthias was simply to starve the defenders. The defenders were led by Hans von Wulfersdorfer, but all he could do was to sally out a few times. At one of these times they were able to set one of the siege towers ablaze, but it made little difference. By April food became very scarce, and the citizens were conspiring to hand the town over to Matthias. However, this did not happen until June 1 when they finally gave up.

All in all, it was one of the less interesting sieges in history.

Da source:
http://www.rubicon.hu/magyar/nyomtathato_verzio/1485_junius_1_matyas_kiraly_elfoglalja_becs_varosat/

Edit: Vienna was surrounded after the Battle of Leitzersdorf, won by Matthias the previous year. His army was around 8,000 men when they started the siege of Vienna. This was not always enough to seal the city, so the HRE troops were able to break through a few times and take food to Vienna. This was not enough on the long run of course. Last time they were able to get through was on April 19. The Battle of Leitzersdorf was the only field battle of the war, when the HRE army wanted to defeat the Hungarians that were besieging Korneuburg, but they lost.

Bookewyrme · Apr 2, 2013

Alternatively, if you can take the time, try GOING to the U of M campus library. You probably won't be able to check books out, but I believe most state university libraries are open to the public for browsing. You'll have to make a lot of notes (or have a MUCH better memory than I do) but you can at least get the information.

You actually probably can get check-out privileges too, but it'll cost you money. At my nearby university it's $100 a year (and I'm an alumni & part of the association there! GRRR.)
Plus, I find in-person visits are usually better than emails for getting information like this. A busy professor might not reply to an email, but if you can catch them during office-hours or something, they'd probably be willing to answer a couple questions. And with email, they'd just answer the questions you asked probably, but if you get into a conversation they might start to ramble and give you more info than you expected. Academics can get on a roll about their chosen subjects sometimes.

JWNelson · Apr 3, 2013

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna_(1485) includes about a dozen reference materials which may be useful (although many are foreign language). Good luck!

VioletK · Apr 3, 2013

Tepelus said:
Hmm, never thought to contact the University of Vienna, or its library. That's a good idea, if I can get someone to answer my email. I'm going to go to the local library here tomorrow and see if they have anything there that might give me some answers, but being that it's a small town library I have my doubts I'll find anything, so I'll go there with the mindset that maybe they'll have contacts. Contacting U of M is definitely an idea, again, if I can get a hold of someone. Thanks!

This link has a bibliography with books about Matthias, perhaps they contain information on the siege?
http://www.oxfordartonline.com/subscriber/article/grove/art/T056037

Radzeer · Apr 3, 2013

JWNelson said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Vienna_(1485) includes about a dozen reference materials which may be useful (although many are foreign language). Good luck!

The Bánlaky reference has some more details on the siege. I can help you with the Hungarian text if you want.

Tepelus · Apr 3, 2013

Thanks for the links, everyone. Yes, if you could radzeer, I would appreciate it. Google Translate can only translate so much, and half of it is gibberish. Always wanted to learn Hungarian, but it's way too complicated.

Radzeer · Apr 5, 2013

PM sent.
And yes, Hungarian is too complicated.

The additional problem with Google translate (apart from the regular problems) is that in many cases the source language is from earlier eras that the translator just cannot handle.

angeliz2k · Apr 5, 2013

Tepelus said:
Thanks for the links, everyone. Yes, if you could radzeer, I would appreciate it. Google Translate can only translate so much, and half of it is gibberish. Always wanted to learn Hungarian, but it's way too complicated.

I've had this problem while trying to translate French. Luckily, I know some Spanish, which shares a lot of etymology and syntax with French. I used a combination of Google Translate, my knowledge of Spanish, and wordreference.com. To make Google Translate really work, I feel like you need a basic knowledge of the language (which, I know, kind of defeats the purpose).

Radzeer said:
PM sent.
And yes, Hungarian is too complicated. The additional problem with Google translate (apart from the regular problems) is that in many cases the source language is from earlier eras that the translator just cannot handle.

Again, I ran into the same thing. I was trying to translate 18th-century French, which I assume is different from modern French and therefore threw Google Translate for a loop.

Good luck, Tepelus!

benbenberi · Apr 5, 2013

angeliz2k said:
Again, I ran into the same thing. I was trying to translate 18th-century French, which I assume is different from modern French and therefore threw Google Translate for a loop.

18c French is actually very very close to modern formal French, minus the modern idioms & some spelling changes (early 18c still sometimes had "oi" in a lot of places that are now "ai", & extra "s" that have since disappeared or become circumflexes, late 18c orthography is basically the modern version) - thank the Academie Française! But if you have any text to translate that you want a 2nd set of eyes on, PM me & I'll be happy to take a look.

angeliz2k · Apr 5, 2013

benbenberi said:
18c French is actually very very close to modern formal French, minus the modern idioms & some spelling changes (early 18c still sometimes had "oi" in a lot of places that are now "ai", & extra "s" that have since disappeared or become circumflexes, late 18c orthography is basically the modern version) - thank the Academie Française! But if you have any text to translate that you want a 2nd set of eyes on, PM me & I'll be happy to take a look.

I was pretty sure that was true, but didn't want to say something stupid. The fact that French hasn't really changed means that Google Translate is just . . . really poor. And here I was, trying to make excuses for it!

I haven't translated anything recently, but I might soon. Thanks.

Bookewyrme · Apr 5, 2013

I've actually had pretty good luck with Google Translate with arabic, at least as long as I give it to it in small pieces (phrases and words at a time). I wonder how much difference there is in accuracy between one language and the next.

Ixtila · May 4, 2013

Tepelus said:
I've been stuck on writing book two of my series because of information I need to continue on has been a challenge to find on this nugget of history I've been researching, and when I do find some info, it's either not enough or what little I do find contradicts other information.

I feel your pain, and I experienced the same problem myself with my latest novel, though my era was considerably older than yours so I expected it to be tricky. The most frustrating thing I found when using the internet for research was that everything said the same wrong thing. By that I mean, there is a wikipedia page on a particular event or character, that page makes a statement that is wrong, and every other page I find quotes that wrong wikipedia page. And finding the right information is almost impossible.

Ugh! Why can't they all say the same thing!

And so...

Toughen up.

never mind the shorty

practical experience, FTW

Swan in Process

knows a hawk from a handsaw

And so...

practical experience, FTW

Toughen up.

And so...

The Man from Eastern Europe

Imagined half of it.

JWNelson

The Man from Eastern Europe

And so...

The Man from Eastern Europe

never mind the shorty

practical experience, FTW

never mind the shorty

Imagined half of it.

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