Fantastic gay marriage article

Kim Fierce · Mar 26, 2013

http://news.yahoo.com/analysis-supreme-court-seems-poised-avoid-same-sex-214420678.html

This analyzes some of the Supreme Court arguments for/against gay marriage.

What I really don't understand is why the most prevalent argument against gay marriage is that gay couples are apparently all considered to not have kids. Many, if not most, of the gay people I know right now do have kids. Some are from previous straight relationships, others from adoption, or like my case a sperm donor. Gay couples exist, gay families are already here, and we are just asking for legal rights.

"It's all about the children," they cry, while ignoring my child, and pretending that some straight couples don't have kids at all.

"It's one man one woman and always has been," they say, ignoring that it actually started out as one man and as many women as he could afford.

The last quote of this article is priceless:

"Justice Antonin Scalia, who has been the most outspoken opponent of gay rights on this court, challenged Olson to say exactly when same-sex marriage became the constitutional norm.

Olson could not but rather asserted: 'It was constitutional when we as a culture determined that sexual orientation is a characteristic of individuals that they cannot control. There is no specific date in time. This is an evolutionary cycle.'"

slhuang · Mar 26, 2013

The social tide in support of same-sex marriage seems to be rising SO quickly; it's staggering and wonderful when I see the latest poll numbers and see such huge leaps in favor. It's happening. Not fast enough, of course, but fast enough for me to be excited about it and to give me some good feeling toward humanity.

And it doesn't look like any analysts think SCOTUS will rule Prop 8 constitutional -- everything I read seems to indicate they will either strike it down, or, possibly more likely, dismiss the case for lack of standing. Which, though not a national ruling, would let the appeals court decision striking down Prop 8 stand, and would make me feel just a little prouder to live in California.

Personally, no matter how conservative some of the justices are, I don't think SCOTUS wants to be on the wrong side of history here, and I think everyone sees where popular opinion is going. In fact, even though they seem reticent about same-sex marriage, it seems to my (completely unknowledgeable) eyes that Roberts wants to make his court remembered (health care, anyone?). The Supreme Court has often been ahead of the curve on social change (the most famous case being Brown), and I think some of them might feel pressure to lead rather than follow here. Which might suggest they strike down Prop 8 after all, despite their apparent reticence . . . at least, that's my hopeful thinking!

Kim Fierce · Mar 26, 2013

People ask why gay couples didn't always have kids, too in the past if this was such a common desire for gay people . . . I'm sure it was much more difficult in the past and even dangerous to do so. The most prevalent cases in the previous century were probably from kids born to straight relationships, one parent realizes they can't keep hiding their true sexuality, and then gets with a same-sex partner. Who would have dared use a sperm donor or surrogate back then, and of course we still can't adopt in most places!

Gay couples with children is more prevalent because gay people in general are being more accepted into society, instead of being hidden, so now we feel like it is safe to do this now.

I think that eventually marriage rights will be a reality. I am afraid though that if the Supreme Court doesn't move things forward in some way, it will just take a lot longer.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 26, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
People ask why gay couples didn't always have kids, too in the past if this was such a common desire for gay people . . . I'm sure it was much more difficult in the past and even dangerous to do so. The most prevalent cases in the previous century were probably from kids born to straight relationships, one parent realizes they can't keep hiding their true sexuality, and then gets with a same-sex partner. Who would have dared use a sperm donor or surrogate back then, and of course we still can't adopt in most places!.

People were using turkey basters at least in the 1970s; I remember.

In fact, I think that the first Whole Earth Catalog even had a little sidebar about it.

I there are Facebook pictures of kids whose grandmothers were in a lesbian commune when I was 11.

mccardey · Mar 27, 2013

My daughter sent me this. It's nice...

Facebook users are seeing red Tuesday, and it has nothing to do with a Taylor Swift album or a Target commercial.
Instead, gay marriage supporters across the nation have changed their profile pictures to a stark red equal sign as they monitor the Supreme Court’s hearing of California’s Proposition 8.

Thank you LA Times.

J.S.F. · Mar 27, 2013

Confession time. At first I was against the whole idea, but over time, the more I read about it, I realized how stupid I'd been. I mean, if a gay couple gets married and if society crumbles JUST because of that, then it isn't a very strong society to begin with.

As for raising kids, meh, if they raise them to be good people, I'm all for that. I understand why people are so conservative and I'm still old-fashioned in many ways, but this is something that to me is a non-issue.

Them's my feelings on this whole matter. I think the world has a lot more to worry about than if a gay or lesbian couple decide to tie the knot.

Marian Perera · Mar 27, 2013

J.S.F. said:
I mean, if a gay couple gets married and if society crumbles JUST because of that, then it isn't a very strong society to begin with.

I figure if society can handle Britney Spears having a 55-hour marriage, it can handle gay couples who remain together for decades.

J.S.F. · Mar 27, 2013

Queen of Swords said:
I figure if society can handle Britney Spears having a 55-hour marriage, it can handle gay couples who remain together for decades.

---

You really had to ruin my confession, didn't you?

But yeah, I see your point. I think Cher was also married for a few hours at one point, wasn't she?

Personally, I like her although I fail to see the point of Britney. 'Empty' doesn't begin to describe her...but I digress.

I don't foresee society crumbling because some same-sex couples decide to marry. Outside of people saying they don't like it--which they're entitled to...opinion and all that--nothing is going to change, except perceptions of what gay couples are like. And by that I mean, they'll find out that they're normal, everyday kind of people, the same way straight couples are.

Kim Fierce · Mar 27, 2013

There are some people againt the whole red equal sign profile stuff going on. The complaints I have heard are "Why aren't people doing this for the soldiers, gun rights, etc.?" Or "This isn't going to make a difference, you're all stupid."

First of all, people have done those things, but not quite on the same scale. Second, obviously this is making the news now, so it could have some effect. Third, if you want to see your own revolution about supporting the troops or gun rights, then START ONE YOURSELF!

slhuang · Mar 27, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
There are some people againt the whole red equal sign profile stuff going on. The complaints I have heard are "Why aren't people doing this for the soldiers, gun rights, etc.?" Or "This isn't going to make a difference, you're all stupid."

Wow, the logical fallacies here are making my brain hurt.

It's not a zero sum game! If you're for marriage equality, that doesn't mean you don't support XYZ other cause. Just because I'm in favor of gun rights doesn't mean I can't support marriage equality in a particular way??? Wha???

And if people don't think it's going to make a difference, why do they CARE? Just let us do our thing; if it's not going to make a difference then why on earth are you exerting energy trying to tear it down, WHAT THE HELL. :e2thud:

Tepelus · Mar 27, 2013

Cuz haters gonna hate.

Kim Fierce · Mar 27, 2013

exactly tepelus!

mayqueen · Mar 28, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
There are some people againt the whole red equal sign profile stuff going on.

There are some valid critiques to be made of the HRC and of the sometimes totalizing push for marriage equality as THE rights issue facing QUILTBAG folk.

And personally, like I said on my FB and saw my friends saying, it DID make a difference. Seeing my whole FB newsfeed turn red made me feel like I could see the change in attitudes toward QUILTBAG folk in this country. People could have stayed silent (as in, not change their picture) but they didn't. That's not going to sway SCOTUS, but it says something powerful about cultural change. And I saw a number of my other QUILTBAG friends saying the same thing.

Snowstorm · Mar 28, 2013

Exactly mayqueen. I got back from a business trip yesterday and last night I checked my facebook. I was staggered to see all the red squares. For crying out loud, I was only gone for 30 hours! It messed with my head! Even some conservative relatives had changed their avatars (I did too).

The wave of change is amazing and heart warming. I hope the positive change continues. The change in attitudes shouldn't be minimized.

Roger J Carlson · Mar 28, 2013

Thing is, I don't want the Supreme Court to rule for gay marriage because of a rising tide of popularity. I want them to rule in favor of gay marriage because it's RIGHT.

ETA: ...and by right, I don't mean morally right by my sense of morality. I mean legally right by the principles on which the US was founded.

Kim Fierce · Mar 28, 2013

Every major argument against gay marriage is religious, mostly the conservative Christian argument. . . and no laws establishing a certain religion are supposed to be passed by Congress (or anyone else).

Roger J Carlson · Mar 28, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
Every major argument against gay marriage is religious, mostly the conservative Christian argument. . . and no laws establishing a certain religion are supposed to be passed by Congress (or anyone else).

Well, I don't know if this is aimed at me, what your point is, or what you think my point is.

But the Supreme Court is not supposed to be swayed by public opinion, and I don't want it to be. The Legislature is the voice of the people. The Court is the voice of the Constitution.

Proposition 8 was passed by the will of the people. I don't want the Court to over turn it because a bunch of people think it should. I want Prop 8 over-turned because it's fails constitutional muster.

kuwisdelu · Mar 28, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
Every major argument against gay marriage is religious, mostly the conservative Christian argument. . .

I think many of them reduce to "eww teh gay" even if they don't want to say it.

Rhoda Nightingale · Mar 28, 2013

People are getting tetchy about the equal sign thingy now? Pfft. Symbols are powerful. That's what I think.

Kim Fierce · Mar 28, 2013

I didn't have a comment aimed at you, Roger. I just meant, the biggest arguments against gay marriage are religious, and religious reasons are not supposed to be used to make/enforce'establish laws. I don't think the Supreme Court will really be able to do anything except possibly repeal DOMA, and basically say, if the individual state recognizes gay marriage, then federal rights that go along with straight marriages could possibly go along with it. But even then I'm not sure.

And here is a not so fabulous article called "4 reasons liberals should be wary of legalizing gay marriage." It's actually not too bad until this:

"Once gays can marry, they'll be expected to marry. And to buy sensible, boring cars that are good for car seats. I believe we're witnessing the high water mark for "People should be able to do whatever they want, and it's none of my business." You thought the '50s were conformist? Wait until all those fabulous "confirmed bachelors" and maiden schoolteachers are expected to ditch their cute little one-bedrooms and join the rest of America in whining about crab grass, HOA restrictions, and the outrageous fees that schools want to charge for overnight soccer trips...."

Makes me puke.

http://news.yahoo.com/4-reasons-liberals-wary-legalizing-gay-marriage-072500719.html

Chasing the Horizon · Mar 28, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
"Once gays can marry, they'll be expected to marry. And to buy sensible, boring cars that are good for car seats. I believe we're witnessing the high water mark for "People should be able to do whatever they want, and it's none of my business." You thought the '50s were conformist? Wait until all those fabulous "confirmed bachelors" and maiden schoolteachers are expected to ditch their cute little one-bedrooms and join the rest of America in whining about crab grass, HOA restrictions, and the outrageous fees that schools want to charge for overnight soccer trips...."

That's just funny. What they're essentially saying is "don't legalize same-sex marriage because marriage makes people boring and conformist". Points for originality, but I think they're missing the fact that just because it's legal doesn't mean anyone has to get married if it's too conformist for them.

ETA: I think the most telling line of that article is the last.

If the left can't disagree with Fox News, what's the point of politics?

Such a perfectly succinct summary of what's wrong with American politics today.

mayqueen · Mar 29, 2013

Kim Fierce said:
"Once gays can marry, they'll be expected to marry. And to buy sensible, boring cars that are good for car seats. I believe we're witnessing the high water mark for "People should be able to do whatever they want, and it's none of my business." You thought the '50s were conformist? Wait until all those fabulous "confirmed bachelors" and maiden schoolteachers are expected to ditch their cute little one-bedrooms and join the rest of America in whining about crab grass, HOA restrictions, and the outrageous fees that schools want to charge for overnight soccer trips...."

That section is about how the sexual revolution is over. Um, since when is the sexual revolution entirely the domain of QUILTBAG people?? That's just silly.

Kim Fierce · Mar 29, 2013

Yeah, it's not like we are living lives of orgies just waiting for legal marriage and will not be physically able to or have the desire to "settle down" until then. I have a wife and son already, no I don't party a lot anymore, I found it got in the way of publishing multiple novels, short stories and articles. ;-)

Who exactly will be expecting these stereotypical bachelors and teachers to marry, holding an axe over their heads?

ULTRAGOTHA · Mar 29, 2013

The Right has now doubled down to piss off adoptive parents, too.

http://www.esquire.com/blogs/politics/war-on-adoption

Hmm. Straight, protestant, white, middle or upper class married couples with biological children seem to be the only demographic they care about at all. That's not a large base to rely on.

Kim Fierce · Apr 3, 2013

Some days you are just minding your own business, having to get some blood work done at the doctor, and next thing you know you are getting quizzed about your whole life. *sigh*

I took my son with me to the doctor, I have to get a procedure done next week and they wanted some blood drawn, just supposed to take a minute. So I go in, and while a receptionist is taking my information, she asks some normal questions about my address, and the relationship with my emergency contact.

My emergency contact is my wife, but I say she is my girlfriend to try to speed things along, since she is not my legal wife and referring to her as such usually results in a lengthy explanation. The lady is surprised and says "You have the same last name?"

"Yeah, I got my name changed in court."

"Oh, I didn't even know you could do that. YOU changed your last name?"

"Yes, so we could all have the same last name," I say, including my son. I don't mind this too much, as apparently I am enlightening someone on the ways of gay families, letting them know something they may not have previously realized.

Then she says, "So if it doesn't work out, you're stuck with that name."

*Sigh "Yeah, just like everybody else."

She seems to realize here this didn't sound quite right and went into a story about how her mom changed her last name back to her maiden name but I am already zoning out, and my son is talking to me about the colors of the fruit snacks he is eating, so I decide I would rather have that conversation lol.

Fantastic gay marriage article

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