Still arguing with reph...

arrowqueen · Feb 5, 2006

Right, I think on this one we're going to have to agree to differ. Across here 'Kicking the bucket' would be considered offensive - highly so if you used it to someone who had just been bereaved.

As for the examples Bernstein gave, I would consider those to be meoisis rather than dysphemism, since they might appear superficially offensive, but are basically terms of affection/inverted pride.

Do feel free to hit me round the ear with a dead fish.

loquax · Feb 5, 2006

It's blunt, and therefore can be easily offensive. I would be offended if my dad died and someone came up to me and said "oh, kicked the bucket, did he?" I don't think it's a term the vicar would use. But then, he would use a whole array of others - "go to a higher place", "pass away" etc

Interestingly "to meet your maker" is normally used with offence in mind, but when you think about it, there's really nothing offensive about it.

pdr · Feb 5, 2006

A little support.

I find the term 'kicking the bucket' offensive too. As in: 'I'll be glad when you kick the bucket, you stupid cow.'

Liam Jackson · Feb 5, 2006

Phrases like "Kick the butt," "dead and stinkin" (my personal favorite) and "Gone to meet his maker" may be well known, but they're dripping in colloquialism. What may pass for common-speak in one part of the world may be be considered unthoughtful or insensitive in another, or even "fighting words" in another. Offensive statements are one issue. Simple matter of poor taste is quite another.

I think if I really wanted to offend someone, I wouldnt wait for something like death to dilute or overshadow my message.

reph · Feb 5, 2006

Bernstein discusses meiosis separately from dysphemism and gives examples, which are unlike "kick the bucket." This phrase is disrespectful in the U.S., too; whether it's offensive, I think, depends on its setting. It would be offensive if spoken to the bereaved.

I called "k. the b." a euphemism because it's a substitute for "die," a word that scares people so much that they've invented many column inches of phrases to avoid saying it. Calling it a dysphemism doesn't seem quite right, because it doesn't denote something worse than death.

It's certainly slang. So are "croak" and "cash in your chips." Beyond that, I don't know that it fits firmly in any category.

Shwebb · Feb 5, 2006

Let's not forget the rather strange and ambiguous "bought the farm."

Mike Coombes · Feb 5, 2006

arrowqueen said:
Across here 'Kicking the bucket' would be considered offensive

'Across here' being in blighty? I disagree. It's a meaningless euphmism, and could only cause offence when used (like almost any euphemism) at the wrong time.

I have actually had someone call into the office to say "I won't be in today, my auntie kicked the bucket."

aruna · Feb 6, 2006

arrowqueen said:
Right, I think on this one we're going to have to agree to differ. Across here 'Kicking the bucket' would be considered offensive - highly so if you used it to someone who had just been bereaved.

Where's the original discussion?

reph · Feb 6, 2006

In the colloquialisms thread.

(grasshopper) · Feb 6, 2006

Unfortunately, grasshopper tried to get cute in that thread and made what he hoped would be a harmless wisecrack about a post. It backfired and ruined the whole thing.

(Sorry. Really didn't mean to do that.)

loquax · Feb 6, 2006

Wikipedia says kicked the bucket is a dysphemism. Sort of. But then, when was the last time wikipedia or dictionary.com solved an argument on these boards?

Jamesaritchie · Feb 6, 2006

loquax said:
Wikipedia says kicked the bucket is a dysphemism. Sort of. But then, when was the last time wikipedia or dictionary.com solved an argument on these boards?

I don't see the point of all this. A phrase can, and often is BOTH a dysphemism and a euphemism. And a dysphemism is often only a dysphemism when it's said at the wrong time, or to the wrong person, and with malice aforethought. Dysphemisms are also opinion as often as not, rather than a firm class of phrases. Euphemisms, on the other hand, are a class of phrases, and "kick the buck" is, without any doubt, absolutely, positively a euphemism, even if it can also be taken as a dysphemism. It's simply wrong to think a phrase must be one or the other.
And, for that matter, Wikipedia screws up all sorts of things in this area. An authoritative source on such matters it isn't. About as often as not, Wikipedia sets authority by who yells the loudest.

Christine N. · Feb 6, 2006

Pushing up daisies
Worm food
Sleeping with the fishes
Taking a dirt nap (don't know why, but I find this one hysterical)
Six feet under
Gone to that big (insert occupational reference here) in the sky

I don't think I'd use any one of them during a time of berevement, but rather to discuss the death of someone I didn't know, or perhaps heard about on TV.

Ok, I missed the OD, so I'm just adding these little things to the list.

Rambling · Feb 6, 2006

I seem to recall (probably from movie-verse rather than real life, though) that police officers and doctors are trained to use the word 'die' 'dead' or 'killed' within the first sentence to the next of kin. The theory is that any possible euphemism they use might be taken to mean something innocuous by someone who doesn't want to believe the truth.

"Bought the farm" has been used in many comic sketches for this effect, but 'kicked the bucket' lends itself to the reverse.

"He was so angry with the leak, he kicked the bucket."
"You mean he had a heart attack after some bad press?"
"No, I mean he broke his toe kicking a leaky bucket."

three seven · Feb 6, 2006

loquax said:
Interestingly "to meet your maker" is normally used with offence in mind, but when you think about it, there's really nothing offensive about it

...unless you're an atheist.

loquax · Feb 6, 2006

Good point, three seven.

"See you in hell."
"I find that offensive!"
"Because I said you're going to hell?"
"No, because I don't believe in hell - stop forcing your crazy beliefs on me."

arrowqueen · Feb 6, 2006

'A phrase can, and often is BOTH a dysphemism and a euphemism.'

Can you give an example, James? I'm not sure I follow how opposites can be the same.

arrowqueen · Feb 6, 2006

'Unfortunately, grasshopper tried to get cute in that thread and made what he hoped would be a harmless wisecrack about a post. It backfired and ruined the whole thing.'

No, you didn't. I just felt guilty about side-tracking the thread because I felt in the mood for a spot of nit-picking.

Cacaphonix, the bard, was always one of my favourite characters in Asterix.

arrowqueen · Feb 6, 2006

'I always associate the phrase: 'Bought the farm.' with Steinbeck's 'Of Mice and Men', since George was telling Lennie about buying the farm - just before he bumped him off.

Still arguing with reph...

arrowqueen

RIP, our sarky besom

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

pdr

Liam Jackson

Heathen Horde Elder

reph

Fig of authority

Shwebb

She's the creepy-looking dude

Mike Coombes

Guru

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

reph

Fig of authority

(grasshopper)

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

Jamesaritchie

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Rambling

three seven

(Graeme Cameron)

loquax

I verb nouns adverbly

arrowqueen

RIP, our sarky besom

arrowqueen

RIP, our sarky besom

arrowqueen

RIP, our sarky besom