History often believed, but is wrong

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Rachel Udin

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People used to believe the world was flat...

Columbus discovered America... (Wrong in so many ways)

Greensleeves was made by Henry the VIII...

Wizard of Oz was a political allegory.

George Washington cut down a Cherry Tree.

...that sort of thing. More proven rather than debated.
 

Dave Hardy

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The power a historical novelist has is to take a misconception and burn it so deeply in the public mind that it can never be undone. Not a bad perk for this sort of work.
 

Shadow_Ferret

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Columbus discovered America... (Wrong in so many ways)

George Washington cut down a Cherry Tree.

...that sort of thing. More proven rather than debated.

Wait.

What?

Hmm.

I'd participate and supply things that were once taught but have since been proven false, except I'm of the generation that was taught these things and still believe them. I find it horribly depressing to think that a good portion of my learning might be lies.
 

gothicangel

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Hadrian's Wall was built to keep the Picts out [an over-simplification of the Wall's function, and the Picts don't appear until the 4th Century.]

The Praetorian Guards wore togas when on duty at the palace [discredited by Sandra Bingham's book The Praetorian Guard.]

The Romans persecuted the Christians [although there are occassional flare ups of persecutions, they are rare and most emperors followed Trajan's policy of 'don't go hunting them out.' Martyrdom was as common in Judaism as it was in Christianity.]
 

angeliz2k

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Wait.

What?

Hmm.

Which part do you mean?

I'm trying to think of some good myths. Generally, I get pissed when people simply make uninformed judgments: like, Marie-Antoinette was frivolous and loved cake; or America ruthlessly won all its land in battle; or the Civil War was NOT caused by slavery. That kind of thing.

Now that I mention it, the Marie-Antoinette "let them eat cake" myth is a good one.
 

PorterStarrByrd

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Davy Crocket's performance at the Alamo

Ned, Wyatt Earp and the Buntline special

British burning Washington DC in repsonse to burning of Toronto
 

gwinstra

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The Romans persecuted the Christians [although there are occassional flare ups of persecutions, they are rare and most emperors followed Trajan's policy of 'don't go hunting them out.' Martyrdom was as common in Judaism as it was in Christianity.]


True enough if by Roman you mean an empire wide, imperial policy to go after all Christians. And even when it was tried, such as under Decius, it varied widely depending on how zealous the provincial or civic authorities wanted to be.
 

gothicangel

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True enough if by Roman you mean an empire wide, imperial policy to go after all Christians. And even when it was tried, such as under Decius, it varied widely depending on how zealous the provincial or civic authorities wanted to be.

Which is my point. It is easy to point to individual emperors like Nero who caused flare-ups of persecution, but it was never a consistent imperial policy. An excellent book on the subject is A New History of Early Christianity by Charles Freeman.

Strangely enough, people rarely talk about the persecutions of pagans after Christianity became the state religion.
 

Maryn

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Can we also include the solar system? Mercury not rotating needs to be in there.

Maryn, trying to participate
 

Lyra Jean

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Which part do you mean?

I'm trying to think of some good myths. Generally, I get pissed when people simply make uninformed judgments: like, Marie-Antoinette was frivolous and loved cake; or America ruthlessly won all its land in battle; or the Civil War was NOT caused by slavery. That kind of thing.

Now that I mention it, the Marie-Antoinette "let them eat cake" myth is a good one.

Slavery is not the sole reason for the Civil War.

Myth: Abolitionists wanted to end slavery and incorporate the freed slaves into society. Not really, most abolitionists wanted to send the freed slaves to what they called naturally black states like Haiti and Africa. Liberia was created by the US so that newly freed slaves would have a place to live. Abolitionists did not want the free black people to come North and take their jobs. They also did not want them to intermarry with whites. There is a reason they helped them escape to Canada. Also there is the argument that Frederick Douglass put up saying to not ship out of the country that America is his home.

Also, slavery was dying out until the cotton gin was invented by Eli Whitney. Who was a northerner. And the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves if the South continued to rebel and lost the war which is what happened. If they had surrendered at that time they would have been able to keep their slaves. It also had no sway over slaveholders who lived in the North or the slave states that sided with the North.

Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine.
 

angeliz2k

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Slavery is not the sole reason for the Civil War.

Myth: Abolitionists wanted to end slavery and incorporate the freed slaves into society. Not really, most abolitionists wanted to send the freed slaves to what they called naturally black states like Haiti and Africa. Liberia was created by the US so that newly freed slaves would have a place to live. Abolitionists did not want the free black people to come North and take their jobs. They also did not want them to intermarry with whites. There is a reason they helped them escape to Canada. Also there is the argument that Frederick Douglass put up saying to not ship out of the country that America is his home.

Also, slavery was dying out until the cotton gin was invented by Eli Whitney. Who was a northerner. And the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves if the South continued to rebel and lost the war which is what happened. If they had surrendered at that time they would have been able to keep their slaves. It also had no sway over slaveholders who lived in the North or the slave states that sided with the North.

Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine.

Pardon me, this'll be long.

Yeah, I have studied the period very extensively. I know everything you're saying. But there are those out there who teach/have learned/believe that the Civil War was NOT the result of slavery. I feel it's an unfortunate outgrowth of the Lost Cause school of thinking--oh, it was states' rights that they were fighting for. I have to call bullshit on that. What right did they want the states to retain? The right to enslave people, pure and simple. The rest is pure sugar-coating and excuse-making--and is disingenuous.

And while the Emancipation Proclamation was effectively useless--it freed slaves in areas that the Union had no possession of--it was a huge first step. I recognize its limits while still acknowledging its vital role. On purely legal bases, President Lincoln couldn't himself amend the Constitution; he did what he could at that point with what legal powers he had, then he worked to get the 13th Amendment ratified--a final, irrevocable death knell for slavery. (The discussion in the movie Lincoln about this topic was pretty good, actually.)

And yes to the fact that slavery was beginning a slow descent into oblivion prior to the cotton gin. Most the Founding Fathers felt slavery would die slowly, and that's how they wanted it. But then it became, frankly, too difficult; you know, Jefferson's comment about holding the wolf by the ear (you can't hold on but don't dare let go). Southerners got more dependent on slavery and commensurately more vituperative in its defense; Northerners, who were racist in the main, were scared to death of upending the status quo (considering what happened when the status quo was upended, their fears weren't entirely unfounded).

And actually, there were many shades of abolitionists and antislavery men/women. Those terms aren't synonymous. Abolitionists wanted to do away with slavery; antislavery men and women wanted to keep it from expanding in order to strangle it. Abolitionists were less likely to advocate colonization. Some people (including Lincoln) clung to the idea of colonization because of their unease with blacks (racism) and because of their fear of racial violence (not entirely baseless).

Sorry to hijack the thread. I could discuss this for ages and ages.
 

Lyra Jean

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Pardon me, this'll be long.

Yeah, I have studied the period very extensively. I know everything you're saying. But there are those out there who teach/have learned/believe that the Civil War was NOT the result of slavery. I feel it's an unfortunate outgrowth of the Lost Cause school of thinking--oh, it was states' rights that they were fighting for. I have to call bullshit on that. What right did they want the states to retain? The right to enslave people, pure and simple. The rest is pure sugar-coating and excuse-making--and is disingenuous.

And while the Emancipation Proclamation was effectively useless--it freed slaves in areas that the Union had no possession of--it was a huge first step. I recognize its limits while still acknowledging its vital role. On purely legal bases, President Lincoln couldn't himself amend the Constitution; he did what he could at that point with what legal powers he had, then he worked to get the 13th Amendment ratified--a final, irrevocable death knell for slavery. (The discussion in the movie Lincoln about this topic was pretty good, actually.)

And yes to the fact that slavery was beginning a slow descent into oblivion prior to the cotton gin. Most the Founding Fathers felt slavery would die slowly, and that's how they wanted it. But then it became, frankly, too difficult; you know, Jefferson's comment about holding the wolf by the ear (you can't hold on but don't dare let go). Southerners got more dependent on slavery and commensurately more vituperative in its defense; Northerners, who were racist in the main, were scared to death of upending the status quo (considering what happened when the status quo was upended, their fears weren't entirely unfounded).

And actually, there were many shades of abolitionists and antislavery men/women. Those terms aren't synonymous. Abolitionists wanted to do away with slavery; antislavery men and women wanted to keep it from expanding in order to strangle it. Abolitionists were less likely to advocate colonization. Some people (including Lincoln) clung to the idea of colonization because of their unease with blacks (racism) and because of their fear of racial violence (not entirely baseless).

Sorry to hijack the thread. I could discuss this for ages and ages.

Slavery was definitely the main reason. I just hate it when I hear it was the only reason. It was taught in such a slanted way that the North was not racist at all and wanted full integration including interracial marriage. While the South was just completely racist with no hope of rehabilitation whatsoever. So I didn't mean to come off as snarky.

back to your regularly scheduled thread.
 

Pup

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Slavery is not the sole reason for the Civil War.

Myth: Abolitionists wanted to end slavery and incorporate the freed slaves into society. Not really, most abolitionists wanted to send the freed slaves to what they called naturally black states like Haiti and Africa. Liberia was created by the US so that newly freed slaves would have a place to live. Abolitionists did not want the free black people to come North and take their jobs. They also did not want them to intermarry with whites. There is a reason they helped them escape to Canada. Also there is the argument that Frederick Douglass put up saying to not ship out of the country that America is his home.

Also, slavery was dying out until the cotton gin was invented by Eli Whitney. Who was a northerner. And the Emancipation Proclamation only freed the slaves if the South continued to rebel and lost the war which is what happened. If they had surrendered at that time they would have been able to keep their slaves. It also had no sway over slaveholders who lived in the North or the slave states that sided with the North.

Sorry it's a pet peeve of mine.

I'm afraid history isn't quite as simple as that. Those are lots of good examples of how oversimplification leads to myths, though.

Random example: Support for colonization (sending freed slaves elsewhere) declined among abolitionists after the 1830s, with an uptick among less radical ones like Lincoln, after Uncle Tom's Cabin came out in support of it. But there was a large faction of abolitionists who remained steadfastly against it even then, after abandoning the idea earlier.

So, one would need to specify what period one was talking about, before one could generalize how most abolitionists felt on the topic. And even then, if one was talking about a particular faction, like Garrisonian abolitionists in the 1850s-60s for example, the generalization would be simply wrong.

There are simple factoids like Washington and the cherry tree, which can be traced straight to Parson Weems and then dead-ends at his anonymous source, as far as I know. That's relatively easy to prove as a myth--or at least unsupported by any other source.

But I think an important lesson is that the more one studies the context of something, the more one can see how generalizations can be chosen to both describe and distort, but are rarely useful as pure facts by themselves.
 

clee984

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A couple of mine....

1) That Hitler was an inspired military leader. Y'know, how you'll get someone expounding "say what you like about Hitler, militarily he achieved a lot." In the early stages of the war, he was just lucky that the allies had no balls. If there are two laws which should be inviable for world leaders, one is that you should never declare war on Russia. The other is that you should never declare war on the USA. Hitler did both, in a matter of months. Not only was his ethos utterly dispicable, he was incompetent. He succeeded in having his nation bombed back to the stone age. That's how inspired he was. Towards the end of the war, he was basically working for the allies, his decision making was that piss-poor.

2) Pretty much anything Oliver Stone says.
 

Lyra Jean

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Quilts being used by slaves as a means of communication to help those on the Underground Railroad.

There was only one source and even they came out and said they made it all up. Also if some of the blocks that they were used weren't even around until 1930s.
 

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Catherine the Great and the horse.

The phrase "the Dark Ages" is, if not a specific historical lie, a snobbish and bizarre labeling of a vast period of Western history. Labels applied centuries late tend to be leading and reductive both.

I remember the one about Mercury!
 

Siri Kirpal

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Sat Nam! (literally "Truth Name"--a Sikh greeting)

Mozart was poisened. No, he probably wasn't. He wasn't a poorly paid either. And yes, he was buried in an unmarked grave, but that wasn't because he was poor, but because that was standard middle-class practice at the time.

Very much agreed about "the Dark Ages" being a misnomer.

Blessings,

Siri Kirpal
 

Bookewyrme

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Ooh yes.
A big general one: Women throughout history have always been thought/perceived and treated as vastly inferior universally worldwide. Gah. Very few places achieve true equality, and certainly there have been long stretches of brutal oppression (some of which are still ongoing), but there have ALSO been places and times in history where women had about as much equality as they do now in 21st Century America (the immediate example which springs to mind is New Kingdom Egypt). And THEN there's all the amazing women throughout history who just get...forgotten. (This particular peeve brought to you by my recent discovery of La Maupin, who was AWESOME, and I've never heard of her until recently, and I'm feeling especially bitter about that).

Hrm. The Pyramids were built primarily by slaves/hebrew slaves. Or by Aliens. :Headbang::gaah

Cleopatra was especially Egyptian (also the notion that there was One Cleopatra, or that she's especially more interesting/notable than the previous ones except as being the last one and the only one that lost a whole fricking country to the Roman Empire. Oh, and she got a couple of plays/stories written about her.bah.)

Those are the ones which spring most immediately to mind. I'll have to ponder any others.
 
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