On Giving Writing Advice

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RichardGarfinkle

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We all need help with our writing now and again. AW exists, at least in part, so that we can get and give such help.

But there is a challenge inherent in helping others overcome difficulties in their writing, the challenge of fitting our advice to their writing methods.

Each of us has our own ways of writing, our own needs and processes. A person who runs into difficulty will need help relative to how that person works, not relative to how the helper works.

Here are just a few areas of writing that people often need help on.

Preparation:

Some writers need to have what they are going to write firmly outlined before putting pen to paper.

Some need to fully imagine scenes before writing.

Some need to research subjects.

Some can just sit down and start.

Some need to have thought through their characters actions and motivations, sometimes even acting them out.

Some need to understand the how why and wherefore of their worlds (particularly in SFF).

Some love to discover what's going on in their own minds (Terry Pratchett talks about the better writer in the back of his mind).


Actual Writing:

Some writers are painstaking even in first drafts, making sure to have the right words.

Some need to just fly through their drafts and correct later.

Some need an even pace.

Some work in fits and starts.

Some need to avoid all distractions.

Others need to switch between writing and other activities.


Rewriting:

Some writers go through draft after draft, refining each time.

Some try to perfect on later drafts.

Some treat first drafts as elaborated outlines that can be completely torn apart and redone.

Others see the first draft as close to the final draft and needing only refinement.

***

None of these are right or wrong ways of writing, but they are often talked about as if they were right or wrong.

New writers need to learn which ways work best for them. Experienced writers need help working through their difficulties in ways that accord with their ways of writing.

It seems to me that part of RYFW is to respect people's ways of writing, to give help relative to those ways and not to try to impose one's own ways on others.

People may not feel that they are imposing. They can often feel that they are helping.

To take a common example:

Many writers find themselves questioning what they are doing and second-guessing their decisions. This can lead to paralysis and a sense of helplessness.

The most useful advice for such a person is often 'Just write it.'

But writers can also harbor actual concerns that they are taking their stories on the wrong path (forcing plot elements, trying to shoehorn characters into incorrect actions, and so on).

In such situations 'Just write it' leads to continuation of error and an increase of frustration and helplessness.

These two situations can generally be separated by asking appropriate questions before giving advice. If one asks the writer what they think feels wrong or seems wrong about the story a writer in the second situation is likely to give a different kind of answer from a writer in the first.

It's always a good idea to obtain as clear a picture of the problem as possible before offering advice.

Furthermore, the questions themselves can help the asker clarify the difficulties they are having with the writing.

This may seem obvious, but it is all too easy for people to be alienated from something they could do well by being given advice that is suitable for other ways of thinking than theirs.
 

shadowwalker

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I think the biggest problem I've encountered (here and other places) is when people are asking vague questions about specific things (ie, their story). They will give a thumbnail description of their novel (which usually isn't helpful), followed by details of what they want to do, and then have vague questions on how to do it, or whether they should do it. And in those instances, what's really needed is not a lot of advice from people who, in all honesty, don't know the story very well, but rather a handful of people who can take the time to read it and brainstorm with the author. I've seen so many threads where this happens (again, here and other places) - and it evolves into a somewhat more sophisticated game of "I Spy".

I think people can give excellent advice on the generalities of writing - what method they use, whether or not that would work for the poster, other things they could try - but sometimes posters really don't know how to phrase their questions about specifics because they still don't understand the problem themselves (or they don't want to post too much, or they can't because of crit requirements, etc). And without reading more of the story than a vague synopsis, those who would help are left floundering.
 

Bufty

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I assume, maybe wrongly, you are referring to say, the Basic Writing Questions Forum or similar and not the SYW Forums.

I agree there's more than one way to approach a problem and that what may work for one doesn't necessarily work for another.

It's my experience that anyone insisting their method for doing so-and-so is best and should be followed usually gets called out fairly quickly by the mods or other posters.

I may be old fashioned, Richard, but I do think it's equally incumbent on questioners to try and state their question clearly. Tossing questions out willy-nilly and before they are even formed properly is asking for confusion.

If doubt exists, asking exploratory questions is one obvious route often followed.

The simpest way of preparing to answer a question and of getting closer to what a poster may be seeking or how to frame one's response is to glance at the OP's profile and prior posts or opened threads. Obviously not every post -although I have done that on occasion - but just enough to guage where the Poster is coming from in relation to the question. Checking the profile/history is often an eye-opener and can completely alter the way one might otherwise have responded.

It also helps if responders stick to the point and keep answers brief and clear.

ETA - maybe your post is directed at some other aspect of Questioning and advice-seeking altogether -if it is I didn't twig it. Writer's Block, perhaps. I don't know.

...

It's always a good idea to obtain as clear a picture of the problem as possible before offering advice.

Furthermore, the questions themselves can help the asker clarify the difficulties they are having with the writing.

This may seem obvious, but it is all too easy for people to be alienated from something they could do well by being given advice that is suitable for other ways of thinking than theirs.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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I think what started me on this was the various world building threads in SFF. People would come in with questions about making their worlds make sense and be greeted with variations on 'just write it' as if making the world make sense in the writer's mind was uniformly unimportant.

I found similar experiences in certain threads on creating characters in Novels.

These were not Basic Writing Questions, so much as advanced difficulties that were advanced in directions the answerers did not seem to feel were important.

As someone who does need to solidify world and characters in mind before going on, I found the advice given unhelpful. Had I been in the position of a neophyte learning to write (as some of the questioners in these threads were), I would have found it discouraging.

The advice given in such threads is often absolute, but help must always be relative to method employed.

As to the vagueness of the questions asked. Beginners in any field rarely know how to frame their questions. Learning how to ask and what one needs to ask for is one of the major skills for any profession.
 

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When I give writing advice (which is pretty frequently), while what I tell you is true, that means it is true for me. What works for me may not work for you.

The master rule is, if you find something that works for you, keep doing it. If what you are doing isn't working for you, try doing something else.
 

Polenth

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Sometimes the person asking the question will repeatedly ask questions instead of writing, as a form of avoiding writing. Often it's the same question asked in different ways, all of which boil down to asking for permission to get started. It's not unusual for the questions to be spaced out, so they're asking, doing nothing for a month, then asking again.

Coming in some questions later, you may not realise this and find the 'just write it' answers dismissive, when it's really the only answer people can give.
 
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Chris P

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I think the hardest thing for me when I ask questions is sorting through the helpful answers and those that aren't. Some people didn't more than skim my question/SYW excerpt, some missed my point, some have a simple answer that works for them but I don't understand yet, and some people give really thoughtful, helpful advice. Part of becoming a better writer is learning what tools are going to work for me.

As for giving advice, I do the best I can but as mentioned above it's advice that works for me and might not work for anyone else. Overall, I agree with your post about all of us being different in how we think and write, but we are also all different in how we give advice.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Polenth:

Of course, that's true. Of course seem people need to just get off their duffs (or on them) and write. But some advice givers have become knee jerk about 'just write it.' There can be the assumption that all questions are procrastination or dithering or some excuse to not write. But that is not so, some people really do need to work things out before they can write.

Chris_P:

That is a serious problem. It's very easy to think that what works for one should work for all. Some parts of the self help industry thrive on that concept. Giving advice is something people don't always take seriously and mindfully.

One problem, of course, is that the people who come up with one size fits all advice for all occasions are the ones most likely to respond.

People need to take more care in giving help, especially in endeavors as personalized as writing (and other arts).

UJ: That's why your advice works well. It's here's what works for me, try it if it works for you. It has the care that comes from making things work for you rather than the forcefulness of one-true-wayism.
 

shadowwalker

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I do sometimes think also impatience/cynicism comes into it. I tend to think when someone asks, "Well, can I do this?", that they really haven't read much in their genre (or at all), or haven't spent much time researching/learning about writing in general. Sometimes I think coming to forums like AW is just too easy, especially when it's obvious they didn't even search here.

Bleah. Better go have my morning coffee before I start kicking the dog, too...
 

mccardey

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I may be old fashioned, Richard, but I do think it's equally incumbent on questioners to try and state their question clearly. Tossing questions out willy-nilly and before they are even formed properly is asking for confusion.

Plus it can be an appalling waste of time - for reader and for responder.

ETA: There's also the fact that it's not up to one of us to say "Yes, you can do that" or "no, you can't." Writers really do have to take responsibility for their own process, and no amount of hand-holding - especially in regard to a WiP that hasn't been written - is going to help.

OP said
In such situations 'Just write it' leads to continuation of error and an increase of frustration and helplessness.

My opinion - I'm happy to beta, once the WiP has been polished, but before that, in terms of "Can I do this? Can I do that?" who am I to say? Perhaps you can. Perhaps it will be brilliant and groundbreaking. There's at least one writer here who I think pulled off what I might have thought before was impossible. So - yanno - "Just write it".

I like the idea of asking questions - I just think that it comes with a sense of commitment to a project that's perhaps already been worked. Because ultimately, the writer has to show what the writer can do. It's not up to us to decide.
 
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RichardGarfinkle

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The trouble is that in any field of endeavor it takes a certain amount of understanding and knowledge to be able to ask the correct questions. Indeed one of the marks of accomplishment in any field is the ability to find the correct questions and discern the paths to answering them.

Writing is a field with a lot to learn and without solid paths to learning. It is also very idiosyncratic so that learning the questions that one needs to ask is a process both of learning and personal exploration.

But if one finds oneself impatient with the questions being asked, might it be better to simply let others answer the questions.
 

mccardey

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The trouble is that in any field of endeavor it takes a certain amount of understanding and knowledge to be able to ask the correct questions. Indeed one of the marks of accomplishment in any field is the ability to find the correct questions and discern the paths to answering them.

Writing is a field with a lot to learn and without solid paths to learning. It is also very idiosyncratic so that learning the questions that one needs to ask is a process both of learning and personal exploration.

But if one finds oneself impatient with the questions being asked, might it be better to simply let others answer the questions.

I'm not impatient (ask the people I've beta'd ;) ) But I think you're taking a Real World - or even a *teacher's view - to the internet.

I know how good my advice is. But why should an Aw-er trust it? Why, especially, should they trust it were I prepared to give it without having made some major commitment (beta-ing) to their project? Why, even more, if they haven't made some major commitment (eg: finishing, polishing) to their own project?

Sans commitment from both of us, I'm just saying what I would do were I writing their project. How useful is that?
 
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ArachnePhobia

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RichardGarfinkle said:
This may seem obvious, but it is all too easy for people to be alienated from something they could do well by being given advice that is suitable for other ways of thinking than theirs.

That reminds me of a nonfiction book I read awhile ago that chronicled the adventures of a writing class. There was one student I felt like the instructor was, frankly, picking on. She was obviously a hardcore pantser who threw everything plus the kitchen sink into the first draft, then went through and removed what she didn't need during revisions. He harped on her, comparing her messy drafts to polished, published classics and telling her to make cuts before her stories were finished. Unsurprisingly, she dropped out... and while I agree authors ultimately own their work and its state of completion, it's hard to ignore that she finished more stories before she took the class.:Soapbox:

*cough*

Anyway, I consider advice, both given and recieved, as spaghetti to throw at the wall. If it sticks for you, great. If not, go down to the next piece of advice and see if that sticks. Eventually something will.

...Then again, that may just be the way I think, 'cause there are probably authors out there who would become horribly confused and frustrated writing several versions of the same scene to see what version/parts they like best.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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When I give writing advice (which is pretty frequently), while what I tell you is true, that means it is true for me. What works for me may not work for you.

The master rule is, if you find something that works for you, keep doing it. If what you are doing isn't working for you, try doing something else.

I'm not impatient (ask the people I've beta'd ;) ) But I think you're taking a Real World - or even a teacher's view - to the internet.

I know how good my advice is. But why should an Aw-er trust it? Why, especially, should they trust it were I prepared to give it without having made some major commitment (beta-ing) to their project? Why, even more, if they haven't made some major commitment (eg: finishing, polishing) to their own project?

Sans commitment from both of us, I'm just saying what I would do were I writing their project. How useful is that?


Ask Uncle Jim.
It's what he says he does.
A whole lot of people on AW have found his advice useful.
 

mccardey

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Ask Uncle Jim.
It's what he says he does.
A whole lot of people on AW have found his advice useful.

Well, yes - exactly. And what he says
if you find something that works for you, keep doing it. If what you are doing isn't working for you, try doing something else.
seems to me to translate to - "Just write it!" :)

I heart Uncle Jim
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Well, yes - exactly. And what he says seems to me to translate to - "Just write it!" :)

I heart Uncle Jim

No it doesn't. If someone needs to work things through before writing that's what they should do. Do what works doesn't mean Just Write It. It means do what works for you whether that's diving in or spending months on research and planning.
 

mccardey

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No it doesn't. If someone needs to work things through before writing that's what they should do. Do what works doesn't mean Just Write It. It means do what works for you whether that's diving in or spending months on research and planning.

Yes, but - how will you know what works for you, if you haven't finished? I think you need to write the thing before you let me decide whether or not you can do it this way or that way.

I absolutely agree with you that "You shouldn't even ask this question" is unhelpful (if that's what you're saying.) But I think the answer to some questions is going to be "Why don't you try it first, and then ask me if it worked?"

ETA: Oh - I just realised we're disagreeing about what "Just Write It" means. I don't intend it to mean Don't research or Do research. I intend it to mean - just do what you need to do to finish it. Because writing is about so much more than rules and word-counts. ANd one you've finished, we can discuss what worked and what didn't work in the book (not the process).
 

RichardGarfinkle

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Does it? But - how will you know what works for you, if you haven't finished? I think you need to write the thing before you let me decide whether or not you can do it this way or that way.

I absolutely agree with you that "You shouldn't even ask this question" is unhelpful (if that's what you're saying.) But I think the answer to some questions is going to be "Why don't you try it first, and then ask me if it worked?"

People have different work processes that work for them and others that don't. One can find out if a process is productive long before one finishes a project.
 

shadowwalker

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Do what works doesn't mean Just Write It. It means do what works for you whether that's diving in or spending months on research and planning.

But to me, research and planning (if one is a planner) is part of the writing. "Just write it" to me means don't sit there dithering about what you should or shouldn't do - it means "Get on with it; you won't know until you do".
 

mccardey

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People have different work processes that work for them and others that don't. One can find out if a process is productive long before one finishes a project.

We cross-posted. I may have explained myself better in edits ;)
 

RichardGarfinkle

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But to me, research and planning (if one is a planner) is part of the writing. "Just write it" to me means don't sit there dithering about what you should or shouldn't do - it means "Get on with it; you won't know until you do".


That's good, but if you look at the boards where the advice has been given, you'll see that in most cases 'Just write it' means sit down and put words on paper (or screen). It's often given as advice for people to stop doing the research and planning.
 

mccardey

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People have different work processes that work for them and others that don't. One can find out if a process is productive long before one finishes a project.


And then one finishes the project - regardless of what I might think about their process. And hopefully I can beta the project and add my 2c worth on what worked then. Not on how they got there.
 

RichardGarfinkle

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And then one finishes the project - regardless of what I might think about their process. And hopefully I can beta the project and add my 2c worth on what worked then. Not on how they got there.

And that's fine. But some people need help along the way with their processes. If no one gives that help writing becomes a sink or swim learning process. I'm not in favor of those because I've seen too many people lose out on abilities they could learn because of the teaching methods employed.

There's nothing wrong in waiting until the beta stage before stepping in to help if that's the kind of help you are good at giving. The main thing is to let others give the help at earlier stages to those who need it.
 

mccardey

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And that's fine. But some people need help along the way with their processes. If no one gives that help writing becomes a sink or swim learning process. I'm not in favor of those because I've seen too many people lose out on abilities they could learn because of the teaching methods employed.

There's nothing wrong in waiting until the beta stage before stepping in to help if that's the kind of help you are good at giving. The main thing is to let others give the help at earlier stages to those who need it.

Well, I'm not stopping anyone, and I didn't start the thread on what might or might not be the right way to do it.

I suspect the issue for me is that I really believe there are better writers than I who have different ways of working than I would use. And I'm happy to wait and judge the work on its merits and not on whether they got there the same way that I would. Perhaps that's an autodidact's perogative? I don't know.. For me "Just Write It" isn't dismissive - it's empowering. Because I don't assume that I have some privileged info that they don't have.

But yes, I agree that shutting down questioning isn't helpful if that's the entirety of the message. "You shouldn't ask that" is not the same, after all, as "I trust you to work it out and I'm happy to read it later and let you know what I think."

The thing is - there are (probably ;) ) better writers here than I. There are (almost certainly ;) ) writers who approach their work differently - and that's their right.

That's all I'm saying.
 
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