SF/F mixed universe question

Debio · Mar 27, 2012

How late in the story would you accept SF elements being introduced to a fantasy world?

The fantasy world in which my current WIP is set, is intended to be set inside a larger SF universe. Eventually, the two are to meet.

I think I have a fairly plausible reason for this combination to be possible. But that isn't the issue at the moment.

What I am concerned with is this. The fantasy world, has been isolated from the universe at large for some time. For the most part, the general population is standard fantasy type
people. There are more educated, historically knowledgeable people who are aware that deep in the world's past there was SF style high tech.

But this knowledge is somewhere between legend and myth.

Currently there is a system that forcibly prevents the world's technology from advancing beyond late 19th early 20th century levels.

So, my question is this. How careful must I be with my foreshadowing and world building? Or conversely, how subtle or how much can I leave out, so that when the tech starts getting introduced, readers won't go, "Howaaa???" and throw the book against the wall in disgust?

I'm not terribly concerned with whether it is a surprise or a foregone conclusion, exactly. I just want to avoid the "What the hell? He totally ruined this story by adding this crap." Because the whole long term goal is to have a conflict between these two worlds.

*Mods, if this should be in the sandbox or something I apologize. Feel free to move it if you want.

thothguard51 · Mar 27, 2012

Star Wars has plenty elements of fantasy mixed within the SF story.

As to how late is too late, the last page. The thing is, if you introduce elements of fantasy within the SF work, a sprinkle here, a sprinkle there, then when you finally introduce the hard fantasy elements, readers won't be shocked or throw the book across the room.

My current work is a SF Colony story, but develops on a world more associated with fantasy than SF. Slowly, the SF elements will be weeded out as the fantasy world develops fully to the readers.

Or so I pray to the gods this is so...

lbender · Mar 28, 2012

Anne McCaffrey, in her Dragonriders of Pern series, has the first few books as a fantasy, dragons and all. Later in the series, she introduces a technology basis for the whole thing, revealing that it's been sci fi all along. I don't recall being annoyed about it.

GingerGunlock · Mar 28, 2012

lbender said:
Anne McCaffrey, in her Dragonriders of Pern series, has the first few books as a fantasy, dragons and all. Later in the series, she introduces a technology basis for the whole thing, revealing that it's been sci fi all along. I don't recall being annoyed about it.

I was pretty ticked at the Anne McCaffrey reveal, when I got there.

Another series was the Wayfarer Redemption, by Sara Douglass, that revealed its "true" scifi elements in book...3? 4? I'm sorry, I can't remember. But the coy "fantasy" description of an asphalt highway tunnel was a big departure for me, that far into a series.

As a result, I typically prefer these things to be separate. If they aren't, I think that careful foreshadowing and subtle clues starting as early as possible is the way to go.

robjvargas · Mar 28, 2012

My fantasy work in progress has this. I'm trying to have hints and vague references that imply the science fiction aspect for later. Several books later. And the vagueness (I hope) lets the story stand on its own if I never get that far.

RemusShepherd · Mar 28, 2012

I think it's easier to go from fantasy to sci-fi, like Anne McCaffrey did. Peter Hamilton tried going the other way in his 'Night's Dawn' trilogy, and I threw the book across the room as soon as the fantasy elements were revealed.

If you start with fantasy, it's not hard to argue that some smart people in the book have figured out rules that lead to science. It's a much more difficult argument to start with advanced science and then say that magic was out there but nobody noticed.

Debio · Mar 28, 2012

Thank you all. Your thoughts are very helpful in prodding my own thoughts on this.

The long term goal is to start out fantasy and add SF later. If things work as I hope*, I will have multiple stories, short and novel length with various characters in the world. The underlying theme through it all will be the question "what is evil."

That is the goal. But, for this first story, it will only be an issue at or near the climax. Even then, it can easily be interpreted as pure fantasy, SF, or a mixture of both. I intend to use mostly the fantasy interpretation.

I had a similar issue with the Dragon Rider books when I first read them. I was OK with it after a while, but my first impression was that something had been stolen from me. I never fully recovered from that, the magic of those stories was lost for me.

I don't want to do that to someone else. If they are expecting it, or at least there has been enough foreshadowing that they feel they should have expected it, I'm good.

If it doesn't work well, I'd be happy to dump the SF stuff for this story and its characters. So it isn't a big worry at the moment.

Also, just in case, I do not intend any of the cutesy fantasy descriptions of ancient technology stuff. The system that prevents the tech from advancing is pretty efficient. The only time it would become necessary would be when the Tech is actually introduced in a straight forward manner.

This is still mostly in the beginning stages. So thanks for your responses.

Filigree · Mar 29, 2012

Be true to the story and how it develops.

I'd be more ticked at a late reveal than an early one. McCaffrey had some subtle clues worked into even the first Pern books, so when 'it's a lost colony' happened, I wasn't thrown.

RichardGarfinkle · Apr 1, 2012

Hints and foreshadowing may be useful in this. Give the reader a sense that something is wrong with the fantasy setup and that will make the reveal fair in the reader's eyes.

The prevention of tech advance might be useful for this, since it would imply that something knows enough about tech to stop it.

Debio · Apr 1, 2012

RichardGarfinkle said:
Hints and foreshadowing may be useful in this. Give the reader a sense that something is wrong with the fantasy setup and that will make the reveal fair in the reader's eyes.

The prevention of tech advance might be useful for this, since it would imply that something knows enough about tech to stop it.

Thank you. This is the direction I was leaning. I wanted to avoid the silly fantasy vocabulary descriptions of highways and the like. I kinda like the tech prevention system.

Everyone knows about it, in a way. It is harsh, and means business. And, it is there for a very good reason. The whole goal of the first story is going to be trying to prevent its destruction/breakdown.

I should probably start some research into Cthulu. Don't come looking for me if I disappear for a while. That's bad territory*.

This isn't Cthulu actually, but there are some distant similarities that I may be able to use.

meowzbark · Apr 2, 2012

As a reader, I don't like my Sci-Fi and Fantasy mixed. Nothing personal.

It's like the show Ancient Aliens where they theorize that all my beloved mythology stories and events are actually the work of some extraterrestrial.

But, there's always the exception if the story is told well enough. In fact, I'm tinkering with an idea that mixes the two.

Debio · Apr 2, 2012

Oh, I won't take that personal. I tend to prefer mine separate as well.

This is just something that has been niggling at me for years. The two will for the most part be clearly defined. I'm going to try to do it in such a way that I can leave the option open for as long as possible without leaving unsatisfying unanswered questions or "WTF?" surprises.

Gotta finish this first story first anyway. So, I'm just thinking things out.

Ergodic Mage · May 13, 2012

Along with subtle foreshadowing add scientific like descriptions to the fantasy elements. Is there magic? give it a pseudo-scientific explanation so readers think science.

richcapo · May 15, 2012

Clive Barker blends magic and science beautifully in his Abarat series -- he does it seamlessly, perfectly in my opinion. Robots and ghosts, mechanical bugs and incantations, and so on. I can't recommend the series enough.

JJLindsell · May 24, 2012

I guess we could help a bit more with more of an idea about the plot/ what the competing elements are?
As well as the adumbration points of others, I'd emphasise how important it is that your 'show', wherever it comes, is executed with finesse. If it's revealed either as a deus ex machina or through a kind of "Ah! This was the issue all along!" exposition, readers might be annoyed. At the same time, there's great scope for you doing it really well.
Good luck!

flashinpon · Sep 20, 2012

Debio said:
How late in the story would you accept SF elements being introduced to a fantasy world?

The fantasy world in which my current WIP is set, is intended to be set inside a larger SF universe. Eventually, the two are to meet.

I think I have a fairly plausible reason for this combination to be possible. But that isn't the issue at the moment.

What I am concerned with is this. The fantasy world, has been isolated from the universe at large for some time. For the most part, the general population is standard fantasy type
people. There are more educated, historically knowledgeable people who are aware that deep in the world's past there was SF style high tech.

But this knowledge is somewhere between legend and myth.

Currently there is a system that forcibly prevents the world's technology from advancing beyond late 19th early 20th century levels.

So, my question is this. How careful must I be with my foreshadowing and world building? Or conversely, how subtle or how much can I leave out, so that when the tech starts getting introduced, readers won't go, "Howaaa???" and throw the book against the wall in disgust?

I'm not terribly concerned with whether it is a surprise or a foregone conclusion, exactly. I just want to avoid the "What the hell? He totally ruined this story by adding this crap." Because the whole long term goal is to have a conflict between these two worlds.

*Mods, if this should be in the sandbox or something I apologize. Feel free to move it if you want.

the theory I operate under is that the reader hates to be 'blindsided' by something that was never foreshadowed. even very extensive plot twists can be acceptable if the reader can look back at the pages and say AAH! I could have/should have seen this coming!

if the entire first book is without any subtle hints and then the last page describes a space battle between starships, obviously the reader feels miffed about this. something (or more than one thing) in the book should make MORE sense now that this twist is revealed-- the occassional strange behavior of one of the characters, the true cause of that strange rumbling underground that was always explained away by thin rationale, etc.

richcapo · Sep 21, 2012

I think the it was science all along! idea has been played too many times by now. How about an it was magic all along! story? Never read one of those.

chicgeek · Sep 21, 2012

In Vernor Vinge's utterly epic Space Opera A Fire Upon The Deep, he writes from several different perspectives -- Omniscient 3rd -- and we're given a window into both sides (the fantasy-skewed world and the sci-fi skewed ones) basically at the same time, until slowly, but surely, those characters get closer and closer together, as the events of the story propel them toward an eventual confrontation. Very interesting. He starts up front with the hard sci-fi, actually, and then quickly switches over to the fantasy world, and then POVs expand from there.

For me, as long as it's foreshadowed, I'm good. But I enjoy genre-splicing, personally, as long as it feels plausible. Really, I'll read anything as long as it's engrossing and I can suspend my disbelief, regardless of genre(s).

Debio · Sep 23, 2012

OP here, thanks folks, Sorry about being gone so long. I was off the web for quite some time. Life stuff. Little one, work, you know.

I really appreciate the responses and I can see that I probably wasn't thinking too far off from what others think. I can give a basic ancient history of the world that would explain the current situation. This history won't appear in the story. It lacks details like names and dates and is unnecessary for the story. I won't do that now though, I don't want to give a wall O'text. And might be better off in brainstorming anyway.

It will not be a case of "Zeus was an alien?" But it will kind of explain why our history and legends are full of magic that doesn't work now. It assumes that Zeus did exist and was a god though. Our legends were true.

So it sort of is an "it was magic all along" kind of story.

SF/F mixed universe question

Debio

Back from the land of the dead.

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

lbender

GingerGunlock

paralibrarian

robjvargas

RemusShepherd

Debio

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Filigree

Mildly Disturbing

RichardGarfinkle

Second Edition and Second Laughter

Debio

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meowzbark

Debio

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Ergodic Mage

Neophyte Writer

richcapo

Knight Templar

JJLindsell

KBO

flashinpon

richcapo

Knight Templar

chicgeek

Debio

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