Thoughts of a first time would-be fiction writer on publishing

Laszlo · Oct 21, 2011

Few would doubt that agent driven publishing is clearly the most desired form of distributing your writing. But is this true for first time writers too?
My single relevant experience comes from a recent query to over 30 agents. The book in question is a 200 page first attempt at literary fiction; the result of a 2 year joyous work. Less than 1/3 of the agents asked for the first few pages of the book, less than half asked for a synopsis. The rest judged the merits of the book by the query letter alone. Half the agents haven't responded at all, many of those who did, used only an automated form message. I know, and to some degree understand the reason for this: work overload. But the question lingers: can a two year long work really be properly judged from a 1 page query letter plus another few paragraphs of synopsis at best?
The standard advice is: write a second book! True, and a sound advice, I must admit; writing should never hurt, after all. But even with a second book I will remain an unpublished would-be first time author, wouldn't I, since nobody who counts have knowledge of my first book. So what is left?
A non-agent driven publishing solution.
True self publishing? Yes, I can do much of the leg work myself. I think however that the crux of a successful fiction book, beside a good storyline and clever writing, are good copy editing and excellent marketing. How can I find these two essential components of success without professional help?
And here should fit in the so-called "self publishing/POD" services - let's not get now into the semantic of what real self publishing is-. I went through several resources, perhaps the most comprehensive being the "Fine line of self publishing". However, when I searched through forums and various on-line feed-backs, I found that even the highest rated services were characterized as scams (Dog Ear, Mill City, and Friesen Press; this last one was not reviewed in the “Fine line…).
Is it possible that mostly disgruntled customers take their time to give feed-back and in reality some of these services offer legitimate help to would-be writers?
I wonder if there are constructive thoughts out there on this subject, or someone could point me into the right direction addressing these concerns. Thanks!

kaitie · Oct 21, 2011

I just want to give a few pointers, etc.

First, when you say only 1/3 asked for samples and half asked for a synopsis, are you just saying in terms of their guidelines, or did you actually get requests from 30%? Because that's an amazing rate.

Second, thirty agents isn't many. There are a whole lot more out there that represent literary fiction, however I think the biggest problem you are probably seeing is that your page count is low. I'm guessing that you don't have more than 40,000, maybe 50,000 words. I'm basing that on the fact that my current manuscript is that long and sitting at 200 pages if I double space it. That's not quite long enough to be considered a novel. You'd need about 80,000 words to be more in the right range. Many agents will reject you on that alone.

I also wonder how much homework you've done on the query front. Are you giving your length in word count or pages? Pages will make you sound like an amateur because length is always given in word count (considering various font sizes, etc. will change the number of pages).

So a few thoughts:

Thing 1) Your query might not be cutting it. If you aren't getting any requests, it's usually because there's something wrong with the query.

Thing 2) Check your length in terms of words and make sure you fall into the 80~100k range. If not, you'll have a much harder time.

Thing 3) If your 30% really is your request rate, send to a lot more people! That's badass and you're doing well. With one caveat--

Thing 4) If you get a high request rate but are getting form responses and partial requests aren't turning into full requests, you might have a problem with the manuscript itself and a few good beta readers can help out (or you can post a chapter here and get some critiques).

Thing 5) Self-publishing is literally done by yourself. You hire the cover artists, editors, do your own marketing, etc. Companies that "self-publish" are actually vanity presses. In other words, they are companies that you pay to publish your book. Most of these are overpriced.

Also, a lot of people don't understand how real publishing works, so they submit to this sort of publisher and think they're being accepted or that every person has to pay to be published. In that regard, there are people who often get scammed because they don't realize what they're getting into. They'll believe their book will be just like every other, available in stores, great quality, etc., and then they find out the hard way that bookstores won't stock them and so on.

There might be good printing services available, but I'm not quite sure who they would be. Others here could probably recommend better than I could

On a final note, however, have you considered a small press or an epress? Many take unsolicited submissions, and in a case like this novellas are more likely to be accepted by an epress.

The biggest question to ask yourself, though, is that really hard one we all have to ask: is my book really as good as I think it is. I think everyone has queried too early at some point (goodness knows I did). It's hard to be objective about our work, which is where outside eyes like beta readers and critiquers come in handy. It's important to make sure we know our work is as good as it can be before we put it out there, either in terms of submissions or self-publishing.

ETA: Even if they don't ask for sample pages, give it to them. I always included five if no one asked.

Laszlo · Oct 21, 2011

Thanks kaitie, I "heard" you and mostly want to clarify a few of my sloppiness:

kaitie said:
I just want to give a few pointers, etc.

First, when you say only 1/3 asked for samples and half asked for a synopsis, are you just saying in terms of their guidelines, or did you actually get requests from 30%? Because that's an amazing rate.

What I meant here is that only ~30% requested samples as per their guidelines. One agent asked personally for the first 5 pages, another for the first three chapters - then came the rejection -.

kaitie said:
Second, thirty agents isn't many. There are a whole lot more out there that represent literary fiction, however I think the biggest problem you are probably seeing is that your page count is low. I'm guessing that you don't have more than 40,000, maybe 50,000 words. I'm basing that on the fact that my current manuscript is that long and sitting at 200 pages if I double space it. That's not quite long enough to be considered a novel. You'd need about 80,000 words to be more in the right range. Many agents will reject you on that alone.

I gave my estimate of 200 pages only to make it simple; it seems that I underestimated the length: I have ~60,000 words.

kaitie said:
Thing 1) Your query might not be cutting it. If you aren't getting any requests, it's usually because there's something wrong with the query.

For what it worth, I took a class on query letters - Gotham, Internet writing school -

kaitie said:
Thing 4) If you get a high request rate but are getting form responses and partial requests aren't turning into full requests, you might have a problem with the manuscript itself and a few good beta readers can help out (or you can post a chapter here and get some critiques).

Thanks for this idea, I didn't know it can be done, I will check about posting a chapter here - exciting!

kaitie said:
Thing 5) Self-publishing is literally done by yourself. You hire the cover artists, editors, do your own marketing, etc. Companies that "self-publish" are actually vanity presses. In other words, they are companies that you pay to publish your book. Most of these are overpriced.

But they promise copy editing and promotion; or are these mostly worthless, poorly implemented services?

kaitie said:
On a final note, however, have you considered a small press or an epress? Many take unsolicited submissions, and in a case like this novellas are more likely to be accepted by an epress.

If I am correct on this, with small press you order large number of books at a good rate and have to sell them yourself; if so, I have no means/time/resources to do it. Epress? I have to find out what they are..., thanks again!

kaitie said:
The biggest question to ask yourself, though, is that really hard one we all have to ask: is my book really as good as I think it is. I think everyone has queried too early at some point (goodness knows I did). It's hard to be objective about our work, which is where outside eyes like beta readers and critiquers come in handy. It's important to make sure we know our work is as good as it can be before we put it out there, either in terms of submissions or self-publishing.

I agree with you: this is probably the biggest question. Who am I to say that my book is good... yet, right now, I am the only one who knows it is

. OK a few friends too, but whould they hurt my feeling?

kaitie said:
ETA: Even if they don't ask for sample pages, give it to them. I always included five if no one asked.

I should have thought about this; no, only those who requested sample pages in their guidelines got them.

Thanks again, btw I enjoyed the Sagan/Hawkins symphony from your information site.

Little Ming · Oct 21, 2011

Welcome Laszlo, :welcome:

It seems that you are new to publishing. Why don't you take some time and read through the forum first. Many of the questions you are asking, here and in your other thread, have been answered many times already.

Be sure to pay close attention to the Bewares Forum.

30 rejections is nothing. We have members here who have hundreds of rejections.

You don't need to pay for a query writing class. There's plenty of very useful and free resources online. I recommend QueryShark and our own Query Letter Hell. Check them out to find out how it's really done.

Good luck.

kaitie · Oct 21, 2011

Laszlo said:
Thanks kaitie, I "heard" you and mostly want to clarify a few of my sloppiness:

What I meant here is that only ~30% requested samples as per their guidelines. One agent asked personally for the first 5 pages, another for the first three chapters - then came the rejection -.

I gave my estimate of 200 pages only to make it simple; it seems that I underestimated the length: I have ~60,000 words.

For what it worth, I took a class on query letters - Gotham, Internet writing school -

Thanks for this idea, I didn't know it can be done, I will check about posting a chapter here - exciting!

But they promise copy editing and promotion; or are these mostly worthless, poorly implemented services?

If I am correct on this, with small press you order large number of books at a good rate and have to sell them yourself; if so, I have no means/time/resources to do it. Epress? I have to find out what they are..., thanks again!

I agree with you: this is probably the biggest question. Who am I to say that my book is good... yet, right now, I am the only one who knows it is . OK a few friends too, but whould they hurt my feeling?

I should have thought about this; no, only those who requested sample pages in their guidelines got them.

Thanks again, btw I enjoyed the Sagan/Hawkins symphony from your information site.

It's definitely hard to know if it's any good. That's where good beta readers come in. A lot of people use unbiased strangers (well, people on this site) to help figure out problems. Or if you have some really ruthless friends who will tear it apart for you, that's helpful as well.

The problem with some of these companies is that they offer copy-editing and covers, but the quality isn't always worth the amount they charge. Editing requires a lot more than just grammar checks, for one, but even then it depends on the level of quality.

The best way to find out would be to buy some of the books and see for yourself, as well as reading what other people say. It's possible that only disgruntled customers are leaving reviews, but they do represent a section of the customer base and it's important to read them and see if they have common threads. If everyone complains that the covers are unprofessional or that the editing was a joke, it's not worth going with them.

You also need to consider, if you do decide to self-publish, what format you want to do this in. POD isn't a good option, for instance, but many of these vanity publishers offer POD and make the books available on Amazon. These books don't really sell (at least not to people you don't know), and they won't be in bookstores or anything like that.

A better option would be to do an ebook and then perhaps have a print option available as well.

This sort of thing is tough and takes a ton of research--both elements.

I'm not sure about the query course that you did so I can't comment on that.

Thoughts of a first time would-be fiction writer on publishing

Laszlo

kaitie

With great power comes

Laszlo

Little Ming

kaitie

With great power comes