Nit-picky particular (that's fun to say!)

Perks · Nov 28, 2005

Would you say -

an horrendous lie

or

a horrendous lie

???

I typed 'an horrendous lie' but Word grammar-check doesn't like it. It just sounds wrong to my ear to say it the other way. What do you think?

scribbler1382 · Nov 28, 2005

Hmmm....good question. Not sure what's right, but if it were me typing, I'd probably go with "a horrendous lie".

Tish Davidson · Nov 28, 2005

I'd go with a horrendous lie because the "h" sound is pronounced, not dropped. You wouldn't say "an horrid child" and horrendous is similar.

Valona · Nov 28, 2005

"A" would be appropriate if the following word began with a vowel. In this case, even though the consonnent is unsounded, "AN" is still appropriate.

Perks · Nov 28, 2005

I found this online in a column called "Mind Our English"

...responding to Mahid Masseluang’s article on “Usage of ‘a’ and ‘an’” (May 28), and would like to add that according to Wren & Martin’s High School English Grammar & Composition, on the topic of the article “an”, it is stated that:

before words beginning with h and not accented on the first syllable, “an” is often used; as, an historical novel, an hotel As I have found out in the phonetically reliable Oxford Advanced Learner’s Dictionary, it is true that the phonetic transcription of “historical” is in fact stressed on the second syllable, same as “hotel”. Because both words are not stressed on the first syllable, “an” has to be applied. – Chow Mei Ling

So that's why I'm hearing it in my head as 'an horrendous lie' - 'horrendous' being accented on the second syllable. I guess MS Word doesn't count syllables.

RubyRoo · Nov 28, 2005

My Londonish accent makes me drop h's so I'd say an but when I write I write a!

kristie911 · Nov 28, 2005

Saying it out loud, an just doesn't sound quite right. Reading it, I would probably process it the same whether you use an or a.

reph · Nov 28, 2005

My usage tip just last week said:

"An historian" is no more correct than "an horse." Use "a" before a word that begins with a consonant sound.

Of course, in my provincial way, I assume U.S. pronunciation. If you say "istorian" and "orse," the "an" makes sense.

Garbarian · Nov 28, 2005

yes, according to the chicago manual of style, in american english "a historian" is correct. depends i suppose where you live.

Perks · Nov 28, 2005

Yuck. I'm an American and 'a historian' sounds wrong, wrong, wrong.

pconsidine · Nov 28, 2005

This is kinda one of those evolving issues that may not have worked itself all the way out just yet. Historically, it was more common to use "an" before words that began with "h" (probably to conform to the sound of the words as spoken), but has been moving over to a more universal rule about using "a" (the one about using "an" only before words that begin with a vowel).

As is the case with many of these evolving issues, the people that learned before the change began (of which I am one) are caught in the middle. I suppose if CMS has decided the matter, it might be nearly done.

Phew.

reph · Nov 28, 2005

Perks said:
Yuck. I'm an American and 'a historian' sounds wrong, wrong, wrong.

Does it really sound wrong or just look wrong? For instance, do you say "He's teaching an history course"?

three seven · Nov 28, 2005

In English, it's an. God alone knows what it is in American - you took the U out of everything, so why not the N?

My-Immortal · Nov 28, 2005

Would you then want to say (or write):

1) He is riding an horse.

Saying that out loud as it is written sounds wrong to me.

2) He is riding a horse.

That sounds correct to me. The same is true with:

3) He is taking a history class.

Putting an "an" in that instead --

4) He is taking an history class.

-- doesn't sound as badly as the above #1. Though if you write:

5) He is wearing an hat.

Sounds wrong and instead should be:

6) He is wearing a hat.

7) He is living in a hut.

Or:

8) He is living in an hut.

I personally like 7 better than 8.

Perhaps it has to do with the vowel that follows the letter "h" - so far only the "I" after the "H" makes the an 'sound' better.

<shrugs>

Take care all ---

My-Immortal · Nov 28, 2005

three seven said:
In English, it's an. God alone knows what it is in American - you took the U out of everything, so why not the N?

Of course, if you stuck the H back into the sounds of your words you might find the N isn't needed....

three seven · Nov 28, 2005

He's taking a history class, but he's writing an historical novel.

Perks · Nov 28, 2005

reph said:
Does it really sound wrong or just look wrong? For instance, do you say "He's teaching an history course"?

No, of course not. But 'history' is accented on the first syllable and that seems to be the determining factor in the ear of it.

My-Immortal · Nov 28, 2005

three seven said:
He's taking a history class, but he's writing an historical novel.

Which one is supposed to be right and which one sounds right?

three seven · Nov 28, 2005

Perks said:
But 'history' is accented on the first syllable and that seems to be the determining factor in the ear of it.

Precisely.

My-Immortal said:
Which one is supposed to be right and which one sounds right?

Both and both. That was my point.

Perks · Nov 28, 2005

In that example, I think it's correct as written. Again, I'm with that column I dug up earlier in the thread - words beginning with 'h' get 'a' when the first syllable is stressed and an 'an' when it's the second syllable that is accented.

three seven · Nov 28, 2005

Again, precisely.

loquax · Nov 28, 2005

Something I noticed - the E in "the" is an "uh" sound before a consonant and an "ee" sound before a vowel.

I never use "an" before an H word, and I'm English. If there was ever such a rule, it would not take a general usage as in "hat" and "horse". Only words like historic and hotel. Why? This is a guess, but those words derive from French, and the "h" isn't pronounced at the front of a french word.

Avalon · Nov 28, 2005

I also thought this was an English English versus an American English convention (as others have suggested, and other others have not).

In any event, just adding my two cents. My current client wants me to follow Webster's Eleventh Collegiate, and they use 'a historic' but 'an historically', per the usage notes for each entry.

Go figure.

underthecity · Nov 28, 2005

There was an episode of MASH when Hawkeye was trying to locate a harmonica for a Korean kid. For some reason he posed as Charles while talking on the phone to get one brought in. He said on the phone "I want AN HARMONICA!"

The memory always makes giggle.

allen

reph · Nov 28, 2005

three seven said:
He's taking a history class, but he's writing an historical novel.

Do the English, then, pronounce the first letter of "history" and not the first letter of "historical"?

Nit-picky particular (that's fun to say!)

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Write For You, Edit For The Reader

delicate #!&@*#! flower

The pretzel in an egg!

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delicate #!&@*#! flower

Too Adorkable for Words

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(Graeme Cameron)

Mr. Invisible

Mr. Invisible

(Graeme Cameron)

delicate #!&@*#! flower

Mr. Invisible

(Graeme Cameron)

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(Graeme Cameron)

I verb nouns adverbly

Linda J. Daly

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