To wait for a publisher or self-publish?

Dana W · Sep 23, 2011

That is the question.

I've recently completed a book titled "DELUDED" -- a team effort with colleagues -- which takes a scientific look at the New Age craze. There is a growing interest in the book right now, and we don't want to hesitate and lose the momentum. Any advice would be appreciated.

http://debunkersinc.blogspot.com/

ios · Sep 23, 2011

Dana W said:
That is the question. I've recently completed a book titled "DELUDED" -- a team effort with colleagues -- which takes a scientific look at the New Age craze. There is a growing interest in the book right now, and we don't want to hesitate and lose the momentum. Any advice would be appreciated.

http://debunkersinc.blogspot.com/

Depends on many factors. First of all, think what you want to accomplish with the book. With that in mind, research and find the option that works best to bring that about. If you decide that is commercial or other publishers, you also have to keep in mind their perspective, or rather, what the book will do for them. But it's not an easy decision to decide self-publish or to go with publishers, it'll take a lot of research and looking at your own goals to decide.

Jodi

Hiroko · Sep 23, 2011

Are you willing to wait for a publisher despite momentum?
Are you able to put out a quality work and have the market you want?

Like ios said before me, which direction you take depends on what your goals are for the book.
If you're willing to put it on the market now...if you're okay waiting (which may or not be granted)...if you think you have the audience/following you want...All of these and more factors need to be determined by you and your colleagues.

Erik M · Sep 23, 2011

More and more I lean toward self-publishing. If the work is ready, I say go for it.

Dana W · Sep 23, 2011

Erik M said:
More and more I lean toward self-publishing. If the work is ready, I say go for it.

That just about sums up our feelings on it right now. Strike while the iron is hot, so to speak.

Dana W · Sep 23, 2011

Hiroko said:
Are you willing to wait for a publisher despite momentum?
Are you able to put out a quality work and have the market you want?

Like ios said before me, which direction you take depends on what your goals are for the book.
If you're willing to put it on the market now...if you're okay waiting (which may or not be granted)...if you think you have the audience/following you want...All of these and more factors need to be determined by you and your colleagues.

We're leaning towards giving self publishing a shot, Hiroko. And yes, we do have a fairly large network of those interested in the topic covered in the book, so it does have a ready made audience.

Dana W · Sep 23, 2011

ios said:
Depends on many factors. First of all, think what you want to accomplish with the book. With that in mind, research and find the option that works best to bring that about. If you decide that is commercial or other publishers, you also have to keep in mind their perspective, or rather, what the book will do for them. But it's not an easy decision to decide self-publish or to go with publishers, it'll take a lot of research and looking at your own goals to decide.

Jodi

We've been agonising over all these factors for a while, but recently the self-publishing option has more or less won out, although I do admit there are still reservations.

Dana W · Sep 23, 2011

My thanks to everyone for their advice, it's much appreciated.

annetpfeffer · Sep 23, 2011

First off, there are a lot of threads on here that discuss this subject in detail, so you'll get the information faster if you check out some of those. I've been going through the analysis myself, but I think it's a personal decision.

1. SP is a ton of work that takes away from your writing time, and if you dislike that, you'd better think hard before you jump into the SP world.

2. There are no guarantees with SP, but frankly there are none either with trade publishing. Many on this website have pointed out that trade books sell better than SP books. The problem with that argument, however, is that most of us haven't been offered trade book contracts.

So those nice trade book sales numbers aren't avaiable to us.

3. How likely is it to get a trade book contract versus doing well self- publishing? Very hard to say, and you're kind of comparing apples and oranges anyway. SP and trade publishing offer different benefits, and it depends on what's important to you. I'm brushing over this because other threads have covered these pros and cons in detail.

4. One thing I haven't seen discussed is the query process and how that might be changing. Now we're getting into speculation about the future, but I say why not? As long as we're clear that that's what it is.

Others will swoop in with their own comments, which is great, but doesn't it seem like the query system is in a state of crisis? I know those are strong words, but look at what is happening. Many editors have stated policies that they will not accept unsolicited or unagented manuscripts.

Now I'm asking the veteran publishing people out there .. isn't that sort of extraordinary? Correct me if I'm wrong. But editors, it seems to me, are people who love books and who are inclined to support and nurture writers as much as possible. It seems out of character to me that they would essentially relegate author submissions to the status of junk mail, something to be thrown away unopened.

It's painful to think about. It's lousy for writers, and I would think editors are unhappy about it too.

Of course, they do it because they're buried. And agents are buried too. Many of them have policies of not responding to submissions unless it's a yes of some kind. Again, it's done out of necessity, because they're swamped. For writers, it's a miserable arrangement.

In a weird way, it's almost as if writers have ceased to exist. The huge majority of our submissions are thrown away or not answered. No wonder writers are turning to self-publishing.

My question is: since we desperately seem to need a mechanism for sorting throught the slush piles, and since agents and editors are slowly being buried in slush despite their best efforts, is it at all possible that SP might become a mechanism for doing the sorting?

Not today or tomorrow, but over time, could it happen that the better self=pubished projects will rise to the top, where they are noticed, and less deserving will fall to the bottom? And this will become a useful way for publishing professionals to sort through what's out there/

I'm just asking. Please be kind. I'm like Woody Allen; I "internalize things and grow a tumor."

Old Hack · Sep 24, 2011

Anne, I really don't like the "no response means no thanks" trend. But having been on the receiving end of the slush-monster I can absolutely understand why it's growing. Agents and editors are almost overwhelmed with submissions.

Having said that, most of the submissions are dreadful. I mean no disrespect by that: they just are. If more writers took the time to make their work better before sending it out, and only sent it out to appropriate agents or editors, we wouldn't be at this point. Writers are just as complicit in this decision as agents are.

As for the idea that self-published books could become the new slush pile: there are problems there. What about the good books which are badly self-published? They're not going to get anywhere. And there are many more books in the "badly self-published" pile than there are in the "self-published well" pile.

dondomat · Sep 24, 2011

Why not compromise? Take a day to surf the web and find publishers and agents who have dealt with disenchanting books and query them.

If in a month none of them bite - self publish and start your network campaign. And anyway, if you're visibly successful, you can later maybe still work with a publisher to publish some 'enhanced, revised, updated' edition.

annetpfeffer · Sep 24, 2011

Old Hack said:
Anne, I really don't like the "no response means no thanks" trend. But having been on the receiving end of the slush-monster I can absolutely understand why it's growing. Agents and editors are almost overwhelmed with submissions.

I think everyone agrees on this. The slush monster is out of control. It's making editors and agents behave in ways they don't want to, simply for their own survival, and the long waits and no-responses are killing writers.

Old Hack said:
Having said that, most of the submissions are dreadful. I mean no disrespect by that: they just are. If more writers took the time to make their work better before sending it out, and only sent it out to appropriate agents or editors, we wouldn't be at this point. Writers are just as complicit in this decision as agents are.

Agreed. One hundred per cent. The only problem: there will always be writers whose skills aren't good enough and who keep submitting. The growth in the slush pile only proves that, if anything. The slush pile is getting bigger, and it's sure not getting better.

The real question is: who has to screen the slush pile?

Old Hack said:
As for the idea that self-published books could become the new slush pile: there are problems there. What about the good books which are badly self-published? They're not going to get anywhere. And there are many more books in the "badly self-published" pile than there are in the "self-published well" pile.

My point exactly. The badly self-published and badly written books aren't getting anywhere. They are being screened out.

That means agents and editors don't have to spend their time on them. (I'm not sure what you mean by a good book that's badly self-published, but editors and agents can always go swim in the slush pile if they're concerned about that.)

The Kindle lists of "Other people have bought these books" (at least in my genre, anyway) contain self-published books that are selling more, are a bit better written, and have authors who have busted their tails to get their books to that point.

I'm not saying this is a group of polished, award-winning books. I'm saying it's a screened slush pile.

This is just my personal opinion. Anyone who disagrees -- have at it. But please be kind and oourteous, as Old Hack was.

Al Stevens · Sep 24, 2011

If you can edit, design a cover and market, or if you can pay for those things, self-publishing can work. Not necessarily will work, but can.

ResearchGuy · Sep 24, 2011

Dana W said:
That is the question. . . Any advice would be appreciated.

. . .

My advice: work hard and smart to interest a legitimate literary agent. Good topic, and if you can deliver the goods, should have commercial potential. IMHO, it is a perennial topic (and one that has been worked over by folks like Michael Shermer), one that will not quickly go stale, unless you have too much ripped right from the headlines.

--Ken

Old Hack · Sep 24, 2011

annetpfeffer said:
I'm not sure what you mean by a good book that's badly self-published, but editors and agents can always go swim in the slush pile if they're concerned about that.

Anne, what I mean is that if a good book is self-published without good enough editing, design, blurbs, promotion, distribution or any of those other things that help books sell, then it will probably not sell. So it's not going to rise to the top, and instead of getting noticed it'll get lost. Which kind of blows your theory (of how self-published books could become the new slush pile) out of the water, I'm afraid. Excellent books which are badly self-published are going to get lost: excellent books which are sent to the slush are far less likely to.

Does that clarify?

Dana W · Sep 24, 2011

annetpfeffer said:
First off, there are a lot of threads on here that discuss this subject in detail, so you'll get the information faster if you check out some of those. I've been going through the analysis myself, but I think it's a personal decision.

1. SP is a ton of work that takes away from your writing time, and if you dislike that, you'd better think hard before you jump into the SP world.

2. There are no guarantees with SP, but frankly there are none either with trade publishing. Many on this website have pointed out that trade books sell better than SP books. The problem with that argument, however, is that most of us haven't been offered trade book contracts.

So those nice trade book sales numbers aren't avaiable to us.

3. How likely is it to get a trade book contract versus doing well self- publishing? Very hard to say, and you're kind of comparing apples and oranges anyway. SP and trade publishing offer different benefits, and it depends on what's important to you. I'm brushing over this because other threads have covered these pros and cons in detail.

4. One thing I haven't seen discussed is the query process and how that might be changing. Now we're getting into speculation about the future, but I say why not? As long as we're clear that that's what it is.

Others will swoop in with their own comments, which is great, but doesn't it seem like the query system is in a state of crisis? I know those are strong words, but look at what is happening. Many editors have stated policies that they will not accept unsolicited or unagented manuscripts.

Now I'm asking the veteran publishing people out there .. isn't that sort of extraordinary? Correct me if I'm wrong. But editors, it seems to me, are people who love books and who are inclined to support and nurture writers as much as possible. It seems out of character to me that they would essentially relegate author submissions to the status of junk mail, something to be thrown away unopened.

It's painful to think about. It's lousy for writers, and I would think editors are unhappy about it too.

Of course, they do it because they're buried. And agents are buried too. Many of them have policies of not responding to submissions unless it's a yes of some kind. Again, it's done out of necessity, because they're swamped. For writers, it's a miserable arrangement.

In a weird way, it's almost as if writers have ceased to exist. The huge majority of our submissions are thrown away or not answered. No wonder writers are turning to self-publishing.

My question is: since we desperately seem to need a mechanism for sorting throught the slush piles, and since agents and editors are slowly being buried in slush despite their best efforts, is it at all possible that SP might become a mechanism for doing the sorting?

Not today or tomorrow, but over time, could it happen that the better self=pubished projects will rise to the top, where they are noticed, and less deserving will fall to the bottom? And this will become a useful way for publishing professionals to sort through what's out there/

I'm just asking. Please be kind. I'm like Woody Allen; I "internalize things and grow a tumor."

Thanks so much for taking the time to post a really in depth analysis of this. It's a dilemma, there's no two ways about it. First we swing one way, and then the other....

Dana W · Sep 24, 2011

Old Hack said:
Anne, I really don't like the "no response means no thanks" trend. But having been on the receiving end of the slush-monster I can absolutely understand why it's growing. Agents and editors are almost overwhelmed with submissions.

Having said that, most of the submissions are dreadful. I mean no disrespect by that: they just are. If more writers took the time to make their work better before sending it out, and only sent it out to appropriate agents or editors, we wouldn't be at this point. Writers are just as complicit in this decision as agents are.

As for the idea that self-published books could become the new slush pile: there are problems there. What about the good books which are badly self-published? They're not going to get anywhere. And there are many more books in the "badly self-published" pile than there are in the "self-published well" pile.

I wish there was an easy cut and dried answer to all of this, but unfortunately as we delve deeper it becomes even more elusive. There's a trade-off to everything, I suppose.

Dana W · Sep 24, 2011

Al Stevens said:
If you can edit, design a cover and market, or if you can pay for those things, self-publishing can work. Not necessarily will work, but can.

There's no problem there, Al. We do have someone who can design the cover, and we already have a marketing plan drawn up. Still...we hesitate. And I know, I know, "he who hesitates is lost."

Dana W · Sep 24, 2011

ResearchGuy said:
My advice: work hard and smart to interest a legitimate literary agent. Good topic, and if you can deliver the goods, should have commercial potential. IMHO, it is a perennial topic (and one that has been worked over by folks like Michael Shermer), one that will not quickly go stale, unless you have too much ripped right from the headlines.

--Ken

It's a dilemma with no easy solution. I think querying publishers first and placing a time limit on it, might be the way to go. We'd be reluctant to give it longer than 3 months though, and we honestly don't know if that's being unreasonably impatient or not. (Heck this is much more complex and difficult than the actual writing of the book!)

ResearchGuy · Sep 24, 2011

Dana W said:
It's a dilemma with no easy solution. I think querying publishers first and placing a time limit on it, might be the way to go. We'd be reluctant to give it longer than 3 months though, and we honestly don't know if that's being unreasonably impatient or not. (Heck this is much more complex and difficult than the actual writing of the book!)

Yes, that is WAY too impatient. Read How I Got Published (Writer's Digest Press, 2007) for a dose of realism.

--Ken

annetpfeffer · Sep 24, 2011

Old Hack said:
Anne, what I mean is that if a good book is self-published without good enough editing, design, blurbs, promotion, distribution or any of those other things that help books sell, then it will probably not sell. So it's not going to rise to the top, and instead of getting noticed it'll get lost. Which kind of blows your theory (of how self-published books could become the new slush pile) out of the water, I'm afraid. Excellent books which are badly self-published are going to get lost: excellent books which are sent to the slush are far less likely to.

Does that clarify?

It is possible that a handful of literary gems out there are not selling in the self-publishing market because they had bad covers or whatever. In general, books that are not well presented tend to do less well, and that's just as true in the traditional query system as in self-publishing.

In the case of those literary gems, let's hope they find a publisher through one of the other ways books get discovered-- a writer's conference, a writing class, or even a traditional slush pile, to name just a few. But the fact is, a writer who doesn't showcase his work well is going to have trouble being seen no matter what route he takes.

Books will always be discovered through a variety of means. I'm merely suggesting that the SP movement might help the publishing industry with a problem it has, the crushing slush pile load that's burying agents and editors. This would be good for everyone.

Right now, many editors have explicit written policies that they won't even consider slush mail -- that it will be thrown away unopened. I don't blame those editors-- they're buried. But they are obviously not discovering hidden literary gems in the way that you have described.

As for agents -- God bless them, those poor souls who have nowhere to hide-- they cannot escape the slush piles. Because of the common no-response policy, coupled with the two-sentence form rejection letters used by many agents, it's actually pretty hard to tell how carefully agents look at their slush. One thing I believe for sure, they are doing their level best in very difficult situation.

My point is simply: some of the better selling SP Kindle books might be worth an agent's time. A handful of them (and note, I said a handful only) are well or competently written --or they are editable, anyway-- they have small platforms of readers, and they have extremely hard-working authors who have accomplished a lot to get as far as they have.

And they're easy to find, because Kindle lists them for you. These authors are not slackers trying to ride the Easy Train to an unearned success. They've paid their dues and are delivering the goods.

It's just an idea, and no one's obligated to agree with me. But it's already starting to happen, and I believe these changes are good for everybody -- writers and people who work in pubishing.

Old Hack · Sep 24, 2011

annetpfeffer said:
It is possible that a handful of literary gems out there are not selling in the self-publishing market because they had bad covers or whatever. In general, books that are not well presented tend to do less well, and that's just as true in the traditional query system as in self-publishing.

Ah, I see what you mean. The advantage that a trade-published book has in this situation is that at least the author will have received an advance, editing, etc., won't be out any money, and will have established herself to some degree in publishing--which means she'll know a little better how it works, and will be better placed to do well with her next work.

As for agents -- God bless them, those poor souls who have nowhere to hide-- they cannot escape the slush piles. Because of the common no-response policy, coupled with the two-sentence form rejection letters used by many agents, it's actually pretty hard to tell how carefully agents look at their slush.

Agents look very carefully at their slush. I promise you that they do. Not only have I done my time in the slush-room, my neice recently finished a three month internship at one of London's best literary agencies. We've talked about how seriously the slush pile was taken there. Everything gets looked at, and the good stuff gets considered very carefully.
The rest, of course, is rejected without a second thought but then why would agents consider the bad stuff once they realise how bad it is?

annetpfeffer · Sep 24, 2011

Dana W said:
Thanks so much for taking the time to post a really in depth analysis of this. It's a dilemma, there's no two ways about it. First we swing one way, and then the other....

Let me ask you something... have you gotten a couple of professional opinions about your book? I'm talking about critiques through an online writing class or a writer's conference, or from a reputable free-lance editor?

I ask this because, before you self-publish, you must know that your book is good. This is crucial. You have no gatekeepers to save you from yourself, as you do in the trade publishing world. And if you go with a book that's not ready, you're going to be disappointed.

It's very, very easy to rush a book, to send out that query or, worse, self-publish before your book's really ready. So think about that, and go slowly!

kaitie · Sep 24, 2011

I just wanted to say that three months might even be impatient for self-publishing standards. You'll need to find an editor, make the edits, probably more than once for proofreading, etc., have the cover mad, send material out to reviewers, etc., have the cover designed, and so on. One of the biggest mistakes people make with either self-publishing or publishing in general is to be too impatient to make sure things are done right. Everyone has done it (usually with the first book, after which we learn better), but especially with self-publishing you can do more harm than good because a flawed product will not win you any sales.

As for searching for an agent/publisher, you probably won't even hear back from many publishers in three months. Agents you will, but it might take submitting to a hundred agents, and if they want to read the full product it can take several months to hear back.

The industry is slow. That's okay. It's frustrating as an author sometimes, but that's just how things are. Add to this that even if you get an agent to speed up the process, selling to a house can take some time as well.

I'm not sure why your topic is particularly time-sensitive, unless as mentioned before it has to do with a specific event. For instance, I can see how a 2012 book would want to be published before 2012, but even in that case you'd have plenty of time to work on it in advance. Chances are you will not be any worse off for waiting six months, which is the minimum I'd give it. In that amount of time, you'll be able to craft a good query letter (absolute necessity) and you should be able to tell whether or not submissions are going well. If they do go well, you should be able to hear back from many agents in that period of time. You'll also be able to tell how you're doing. If it looks like no one is biting, then you'll have had plenty of time to get things prepared to self-publish if you choose to.

The fact is, if you have something hot it should be picked up quicker, but even then it can take time. You just have to consider how much people have to read. If you target agents specific to your topic who have sold similar books, however, and you have a damn good proposal, you should see interest soon. That last part is obviously the hardest.

If you do decide to self-publish, just be certain to check yourself and make sure you aren't rushing through anything. Self-publishing well takes a lot of time and effort. I've seen numerous cases of people deciding they want to just get their work out there and the product is far from ready.

If you have a good platform and many people ready to buy your book, self-publishing might be a great choice, but an agent/publisher will also be impressed by such a platform. Also keep in mind that a publisher will be able to reach more readers by default. If your topic is niche (I'm not sure this is) self-publishing is a better option, but if you can reach a wider audience a publisher will get your book into more hands.

Lots to consider of course, but the most important thing is just to not be too impatient. Be aware that publishing in any form requires a lot of time and effort. The best thing you can do now is a lot of research. Learn as much as you can about both publishing and self-publishing. Find out how to do it right in both cases, what the industry is like, and how it works. There is a lot of great information here, and Research Guy has a good book on the topic as well.

kaitie · Sep 24, 2011

annetpfeffer said:
It is possible that a handful of literary gems out there are not selling in the self-publishing market because they had bad covers or whatever. In general, books that are not well presented tend to do less well, and that's just as true in the traditional query system as in self-publishing.

In the case of those literary gems, let's hope they find a publisher through one of the other ways books get discovered-- a writer's conference, a writing class, or even a traditional slush pile, to name just a few. But the fact is, a writer who doesn't showcase his work well is going to have trouble being seen no matter what route he takes.

Here's the problem. Yes, books given bad covers do poorly even with commercial publishing (Game of Thrones, anyone?), but if you look at covers done by a commercial publisher compared to a self-publisher, it's almost always very easy to tell which is which. Even a bad commercially published cover is usually not that bad (small e-presses with awful cover artists not included). Second, agents are able to potentially argue against things like that and advocate for the author, meaning the author has people backing him to help prevent that from happening.

A book being poorly self-published doesn't mean that the book would have been poorly queried. Besides, even a mediocre query letter can get requests if the sample pages attached are good enough. It has more hurdles to go through, but it does happen. Consider the difference: a book with a poor cover in need of some editing with a mediocre blurb will probably not succeed being self-published. However, a mediocre query can generate requests (this is why you always include sample pages), the need for some editing isn't going to automatically kill you with an agent (after all, the book will be edited, and many agents will request revisions before taking you on--mine did).

The biggest problem with your statement, however, is the idea that those lost gems can go on to be commercially published.

It's possible that with the increase in self-publishing people are going to be more willing to look at books that have bad sales records, but generally speaking once a book has been published, that book has used it's chance. That's why doing it well is so damn important for self-publishing. You can't just take that book to a literary agent at a conference or query it out and expect to get takers. The fact that it was self-published is automatically going to make it a difficult sell. Agents are less likely to pick it up unless it has a large number of sales behind it. The same is true for publishers.

Yes, there are gems that fall through the cracks in commercial publishing that can have a second chance with self-publishing, but it's not a good idea to assume that this works both ways. If you fall through the cracks self-publishing, your book is essentially dead and the best advice is just to write another book.

This is why we try to advise people to research and consider every alternative. It is impossible to make an informed decision without being aware of the consequences of your actions--both the good and the bad. In this case, one of the bad consequences is that once you've done it, you've just made it a thousand times harder than it was before (and trust me, it's hard). This is why we always suggest that if someone truly wants to be commercially published they pursue that first. If that isn't important, then self-publishing is a fine alternative.

To wait for a publisher or self-publish?

Dana W

ios

Weirdo.

Hiroko

Which of them was the machine?

Erik M

Aaaayyy!

Dana W

Dana W

Dana W

Dana W

annetpfeffer

practical experience, FTW

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

dondomat

annetpfeffer

practical experience, FTW

Al Stevens

ResearchGuy

Resident Curmudgeon

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

Dana W

Dana W

Dana W

Dana W

ResearchGuy

Resident Curmudgeon

annetpfeffer

practical experience, FTW

Old Hack

Such a nasty woman

annetpfeffer

practical experience, FTW

kaitie

With great power comes

kaitie

With great power comes