writer desperation/depression

gp101 said:

I'll never stop trying, but I won't let it define me either. Just figured some people needed to hear this to keep their sanity.

Click to expand...

I guess the problem for these kinds of writers is that they honestly believe that their passion for writing does define them...

I think those types of individuals are the ones who are unable to see their work objectively, and likely just aren't cut out for the publishing business.

I've never tried to get published, partly because of fear of rejection and partly because I still don't feel my ms are good enough to be published.

I have fear of rejection because I know myself, and as you said, I will practically die if I get rejected. I'm still trying to get over that phase, because (thankfully) I realize that's a problem, so I'm not even going to try and get myself published before I know I'm mature enough to handle a rejection.

aadams73 said:

I think those types of individuals are the ones who are unable to see their work objectively, and likely just aren't cut out for the publishing business.

Click to expand...

Probably. And they're not "ready" because the publishing world is full of rejections, long waits, contentions, etc. etc. I think a lot of writers don't understand that it's a business. I think once we understand it's a business and treat it as such, we'll be more prepared and have a better mindset about the whole thing -- it's not about "I've created a masterpiece and everyone should love it." I also sense self-esteem issue, which MOST writers have (that's probably why we write in the first place, to be acknowledged and liked and the whole shebang). To us, rejections do feel so intolerable because it makes us feel personally invalidated, and reminds us the first time when beautiful Sue or handsome Kirk rejected us in the school hallway and everyone laughed around us... we feel the world is laughing at us because we haven't "made it."

Then there's the flip side: our ego and belief that we're such good writers and our works are better than the crap out there. It adds to our frustration and our inability to see our work objectively. Good writers sometimes write crap, and we must see to it that we can recognize our own crap. Many "writers" can't. They don't understand when their peers tell them, "This doesn't work." When an agent says, "This is not for us..." To them, these rejections become personal attacks.

Picking up on the last line of Ray's post, I stopped doing critiques for people I couldn't see face-to-face for several years after one writer after another came to me for critique, received it (tactful and gentle, but honest), and took it as a personal attack. I didn't critique for anyone online for a full two years after an impassioned writer threatened to kill me. Over a critique! Sheesh.

I, too, see a lot of aspiring writers who have way too much of their self-esteem wrapped up in their writing rather than in whole, rounded lives. I won't deny that it smarts when I get a rejection, or a critique that's painful because it's accurate, but I can turn to other aspects of my life that are better for solace. I feel bad for anyone who has nothing going for them except their writing.

Maryn, whose eggs are hidden all over the house and yard, rather than in one basket

I think writers also need to realize that they will face a lot of rejection, because that's the way it is, and it happens to everyone. I never sent anything in for publication before, and now I'm going to. It's mainly because acting has helped me. I started getting into acting, and I went to so many auditions and never got cast. It was easier to get rejected about something I didn't care so much about. But the more auditions I went to, the better I got an auditioning. Now I get a lot of roles. And yet, even now, I don't get everything I try out for.

I went to a convention in Chicago, and one of the speakers said to us, "If you don't get a callback tomorrow, and there are a lot of tears, it's a sign that this business is not for you." Well, I didn't get a callback, but I came out of it feeling really proud of myself that I had gone through it, and still wanted to do it.

I think writers need to get used to this. I know I would rather get an acceptance than a rejection, no matter the circumstance. But I think when writers (and even actors) get depressed about it, it's almost like they don't understand that it happens to everyone.

By the way, Maryn, that is unfortunate about what happened to you. You did someone a favor, and that person turned on you. I will give anyone a rep point who takes time out of their day to read my story and comment on it, whether I find it helpful or not.

Putting a big emotional load on the idea of getting published makes a person too vulnerable. I think people mistakenly look to publication as a form of validation, in about the same way that kids in high school yearn to be popular.

The people I know who are emotionally completely tied up in getting published often set themselves up for failure by trying to start at the top, because they have unrealistic goals and expectations. They send things out to the New Yorker or the first thing they write is a 200,000 word nove,l and then they are devastated when they are rejected.

Unfortunately some people are into the romance of being a published author and don't take the time to understand the business of publishing. Often these people seem to think that being published will change their lives, almost like winning the lottery. And then if they self-publish and their lives don't change, they are equally depressed. (Trust me,for most authors life dosn't change that much even if you are traditionally published.)

My advice is always to learn your craft, understand the business, and target your work to a place where you realistically can expect a decent shot at being published, whether it is your local paper, a smalll magazine, an online e-zine. Then build from your successes and be open to learning from your rejections. Getting published is more like therapy than like winning the lottery. It takes time, patience, willingness to learn from others, and sometimes painful realizations before anything substantative happens.

gp101,

I thank you for starting this thread, as it brings up some things I've been thinking about a lot lately.

I'm hardly at the desperation point, and after 10+ years of writing and submitting I've learned to let myself have only one day to wallow in bad feelings over a rejection slip before moving on. I'm grateful for the constructive criticism I've gotten from editors; I've not always immediately agreed with their views, but time has a way of showing your mistakes.

Still, I find myself stalled on projects, overly concerned about "never getting anywhere" or "never becoming anything"--despite my successes. I do at times feel like a failure, but I'm learning to step back. My passions are poetry and short fiction, and we all know success in those fields is hard to achieve and commerically . . . well. I think sometimes about the greats who have achieved fame and a place in The Literary Canon only to commit suicide, or become miserable abusive drunks, or whatever. I'm lucky to have all kinds of love in my life, yet still find myself at times unhappy, dissatisfied because the big litmags keep turning me down. On a good day, I see the big picture. On a really good day, I realize that I have issues with myself that would still be there even if I received a Pulitzer. I'm trying to sort through it all, and it's a daily practice to remind myself to Just Be.

gp101 said:

I know I get pretty bummed out when I don't sell that short story or get an agent for that novel I slaved over. I may be border-line depressed if I get the rejections during a time when other crap is going downhill in my personal life. But for as long as I've been trying to get published, and for all the love I have for this craft, I've never allowed my failures to threaten my mental or physical health.

I post this because I read on other on-line sources how desperate some writers are to be published. Actually, it's worse than that. I'll say I'm desperate to be published, though I won't skip steps or settle for anything less than the traditional agent-loves-me-and-sells-my-book avenue. But there are people who put their entire self-worth into their potential masterpeices. For these writers, rejection seems like a societal rejection.

Do you know of anyone like this? Do they realize that life doesn't end with the latest SASE returned in the mail? Like I said, I get bummed when I fail at achieving the life-long goal I've had since I was a kid. But I count my other blessings and realize things could be a lot worse. I hope others out there consider the same things. Even if you never get published, doesn't mean you're a failure in life.

Forgive my getting wishy-washy, but I get alarmed at some of the things I read about regarding writers (or artists in general, actors, singers) who fail to achieve their goals. I'll never stop trying, but I won't let it define me either. Just figured some people needed to hear this to keep their sanity.

Click to expand...

I'm like the person you described, sometimes. In fact, I recently sent a manuscript (short story) to a tiny e-zine to see if they'd publish it, and when they rejected it, I didn't send it out again because I thought no one would like it.

I guess that's something I still struggle over.

To top that off, I also suffer from Dysthimia, a mental illness that causes me to be depressed just about all the time. There are no ups and downs, just downs. I think that might exacerbate the problem I have in trying to get a work published. I know I can write a good story, but when I get a rejection I feel as though the whole world is caving in on me.

I mean, I'm prepared when a book publisher rejects a work, but for some reason I'm not prepared when a magazine or e-zine rejects my work. I don't know why, but I it's just the way I am.

If there's any way I can change this, I'd love to know what it is so I can implement it. Having a thick skin is necessary in this business, but I have that thick skin only under certain circumstances.

I gathered 450 rejections before landing a six-figure deal.


If you keep banging your head against the wall long enough, the wall will break. And there's a word for a writer who never gives up... published.

Writing

I guess I'll take the opposite tack here. From my experience, those who succeed are often the very ones who put everything they have into whatever it is they're doing. Effort, determination, emotional health, livlihood, relationships, and defining moments.

They do determine success or failure by whjether or not they accomplish their goal, be it in writing, singing, or any other business, and I see nothing at all wrong with this. People do fail. That's just how it is. People fall flat on their face and fail completely, and it's fear of doing this that provides the drive and dermination often needed for success.

The moment you tell yourself yoo won't have failed, even if your goal isn't achieved, you're probably setting yourself up for falling on your face. It means there's nothing to push on forward. Nothing to fear by quitting.

Failure is a natural part of life, and if you can't fail, then you also can't succeed. Anyone who doesn't fail just hasn't tried enough things. Failure is only a bad thing if you let it stop you from trying something new.

But the fear of failure can be the best motivator in the world, and without it, giving up too soon, or not working hard enough and long enough along the way, is a very real possibility. Of course things could always be worse, but success usually comes from realizing things could always be better.

JA, yours is a good story to tell. Perseverence!

It is funny for me, because I have never really gotten all that down from rejection or such things as so-called negative critiques, but when I started putting my stories out a few years ago, I had just started coming to this great site where writers talk about the craft and share there expertise and wisdom. . . I can't quite remember the name of that site. . .

hmmm. . .


Oh yeah! It was Absolute Write.

I read all the uncle jim stuff back when it was still relatively young (and small) and I have taken a lot of what Jim has to say to heart. I learned from the fine folks of this site over the past few years that (as stated above) writing is a business and quality sells. If I work at it and make quality, I all really need to do it be persistent with it, to not take personal affront to critique and to find the market/ agent that will help me succeed.

Now as to that, I am yet to succeed, but I do not doubt that if I follow the precepts and let my talent ride, there is a good chance of success, and who knows, when it starts snowballing, if it starts snowballing, I will achieve my foolish dream. To be the Best Dan Writer Ever.

Oh shucks, anyway, a people need to have their dreams, huh? If things don't pan out the way I would imagine, then I always have a steady background where I can fall into and survive. The world will be alright, at least that is what I keep telling myself.

Weren

Maryn said:

I, too, see a lot of aspiring writers who have way too much of their self-esteem wrapped up in their writing rather than in whole, rounded lives. I won't deny that it smarts when I get a rejection, or a critique that's painful because it's accurate, but I can turn to other aspects of my life that are better for solace. I feel bad for anyone who has nothing going for them except their writing.

Maryn, whose eggs are hidden all over the house and yard, rather than in one basket

Click to expand...

I couldn't agree more. Defining yourself, your worthiness, or your degree of success using just one measure is crazy. There are so many accomplishments, and roles, and achievements that contribute to who we all are. And not everyone will succeed in everything they try.

Picking up on the last line of Ray's post, I stopped doing critiques for people I couldn't see face-to-face for several years after one writer after another came to me for critique, received it (tactful and gentle, but honest), and took it as a personal attack. I didn't critique for anyone online for a full two years after an impassioned writer threatened to kill me. Over a critique! Sheesh.

Click to expand...

I, too, got kicked in the teeth for volunteering my time to do free critiques. That's why I almost never do them anymore. I began to feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football....

"Critique my work for me, PLEASE. I promise I'll remain objective and won't react to anything you say."

I remember how desperate I used to be for some kind of feedback so I do it, spend a lot of time on it, and strive to be as objective, tactful, and constructive as I can with my criticism. I try to separate my comments into subjective and objective as best I can, singling out things I don't like because they are poorly written versus things I may not like simply because of my own tastes. I try to balance the negative comments with positive ones as often as I can. And when I'm done I give it to the person who requested it...who then turns around and calls me every name in the book and tells me I'm ignorant, blind, mean-spirited, stupid....the list is endless.

I chalk it up to one person's much-too-fragile ego and when the next person says, "Critique my work me PLEASE. I promise...." I remember how desperate I was for any kind of feedback years ago and fall for it all over again.

Beth

You know, I have never taken rejections personal. In fact, I have a couple that I like to read for encouragement. I did get some that I kind of went "owie" when I read them, but other than tone, the content was correct and helped me to see some of my weaknesses.

My rejections may continue for some time or they may not. But one thing for sure, I will not give up. I've too much of myself and time invested in my writing. Besides, I love the game, rejections and all. Every day is a day that perhaps the tide will change and some editor just happens to like what s/he reads.

KTC said:

Anyway, after he died, his mother got the novel published and it won the Pulitzer. The novel, A Confederacy of Dunces.

Click to expand...

His mother had a hell of a time getting the thing published, too, and only through a stroke of the purest dumb luck, by doing something generally frowned upon by most advisers (buttonholing a famous writer, Reynolds Price, to look at the thing, after which he got it published through a university press where he had some association).

caw.

Here's something along these lines that might be inspirational (or not):

All it takes to get a book published is for two people to like it, an agent and an editor.

For a short story, it's just an editor.

One editor, one agent, somewhere out there.

The truth is, it's a lot harder to get your writing recognized than it is to get it published. For it to be recognized about a hundred people have to like it, including prominent book reviewers, book store chain operators, trade publications, the publisher's publicity department, etc. etc.

Did you know that there's a strong correlation between writing and depression? There's an excellent book about it (Touched with Fire/Kay Redfield Jamison).

I used to get despondent about my writing when it wasn't going well, or when I got yet another rejection. I don't anymore. I just keep writing. I have been at this game long enough (and been published often enough, and won enough prizes) to know that I write well. It is difficult to keep that focus sometimes but I do. There's too much damage to be done by being hurt by a rejection that has nothing to do ME, and more to do with the current market, perhaps, or the number of stories an editor has all ready signed up to publish.

I no longer critique work online, for much the same reasons given above by Maryn. I was jumped on by a whole forum for criticising a piece too strongly, when the writer had asked for all comments, no matter how harsh. No matter how much I respect my fellow writer (and I do, a lot--this can be a hard game to play) I cannot pretend to be encouraging when someone writes truly badly! I now only give critiques if I'm paid for them. I find that people listen to my opinions far more attentively when they've handed over good, hard cash to hear them.

As for disabling illnesses, well, me too. I have fibromyalgia which means that I have constant muscular and joint pain, am prone to depression, and I struggle to sleep. It's an absolute bastard. The meds I have to take do make my mind foggy, sometimes, and I forget to do many, many things. I also have RSI (from typing and writing so much!) which has been shown, recently, to cause depression even before it causes pain. I could just stop writing and sit in a corner, reviewing my medication. But that's dull. Writing is far more fun.

popmuze said:

The truth is, it's a lot harder to get your writing recognized than it is to get it published.

Click to expand...

No doubt true, but also utterly irrelevant UNLESS you get the stuff published.

caw.

Not to say that they were completely wrapped up in beomcing published alone, but if you look at most of the writers in the popular cannon, they took their work that seriously. Someone made the point of the correlation between writing and depression, and that's something that's always interested me. Of course, you have people like Virginia Woolf who suffered from massive bouts of depression, but even the likes of Mark Twain did, too...

i think all artists in general are prone to depression, due to the personal aspect of their work. an artist cannot separate themselves from their work like those in other fields. what goes on in the artist's mind, positive or negative, is imperative to the creative process.

Jamesaritchie said:

Failure is a natural part of life, and if you can't fail, then you also can't succeed.

Click to expand...

Wasn't it just a little while back that we heard you got an agent on the first and only query you sent, and that agent sold your book to the first publisher who saw it, or something like that?

caw.

I was reading an article on (MSN, I Think) last week that said that people who are artistic have more cross over between left and right brain than 'normal' ( what IS normal?) people and that 'crazy' people have excessive cross over and they can't control it. So I think that means that 'we' (All of us smart artistic folk) are more prone to mood swings than the people who grunt to make the 'machine' move.

Desperation/depression/rejection.

The rejection slips are a learning experience. How many times did you fall down when you were learning to walk? How many times did you spill juice down your shirt when you were learning to drink from a cup? How many years of schooling did you complete before you made your first post?
Uh HUH! SEE!!!!!!!
It takes a while to master a skill. You take a step (or sip) and fall (or spill). You learn something about balance every time it happens. Read every rejection slip and examine what they are rejecting, why, and then re-write or temper your proposals to fit. Compare the ones you sent out a year ago to the ones you are sending now. The changes may be subtle, but they are there. Use each rejection as a learning experience, don't look at it as a rejection. You get one back that says "Not our kind of work" then don't get all bluffy and snippy because they rejected you, go "AHA, they sent it back because...." then either change your submission and re-submit, or send it to someone who says they handle what you are selling. ( I am the proud owner of 79 "learning experience" slips!)

By the way...you need a hug