Gnosticism - interstitial or fantasy?

latourdumoine · Jun 2, 2011

I'm having problems with the classification of a short story or two, so while I'm researching this more, I thought I'd put it out here as well.

The basic premise is reincarnation and it contains a discussion on religious beliefs between a church elder and a girl (a Gnostic) in the Middle Ages.

The other story is set in Ancient Babylon, touching upon the ancient gods slightly.

So far my instinct is to go with Interstitial/ Fantasy. And seeing that thread here, is a particular life saver for me in its own right.

cherita · Jun 2, 2011

Gnosticism qualifies as fantasy? I'd think that would go under religious fiction... or is it the reincarnation? I guess I'm asking, what are the fantastic elements in your story besides the reincarnation and religious mentions?

shadowwalker · Jun 2, 2011

I'd say both Gnosticism and reincarnation go under religious fiction, as both are elements of various religions.

latourdumoine · Jun 6, 2011

Demons and beings from mythology. That's why I started wondering about the fantasy element of it. I've seen reincarnation classed under Fantasy on some occasions, which made me wonder.

Thanks to both of you.

areteus · Jun 6, 2011

I think it could go either way... if the demons and beings from mythology actually appear and/or someone actually does get reincarnated and it is clearly what has happened (not, for example, some hypnotherapy induced memories which may or may not be real depending on your personal beliefs) then yes, absolutely place it in fantasy.

If, however, you are talking about demons or there is some doubt regarding whether the person really is reincarnated or not then you could say this is not fantasy...

A good fiction work on this topic is Foccault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. Its a little difficult to get into the style at times (translation from Italian is a little ropey in places) but once you get over that it is a good little black comedy about occult, theological and gnostic beliefs between the 11th and 20th centuries - especially bearing in mind that Eco is a professor of theology. I am always amused by his comment on Rosicrucians - anyone who claimed to be a Rosicrucian probably wasn't, why would members of a so called secret society tell anyone about it?

cherita · Jun 6, 2011

latourdumoine said:
Demons and beings from mythology. That's why I started wondering about the fantasy element of it. I've seen reincarnation classed under Fantasy on some occasions, which made me wonder.

Demons and mythological beings are absolutely fantasy. Reincarnation by itself, on the other hand, is not. That anyone would classify it as fantasy (without any other fantastic elements present in the story) is mystifying to me, and I would imagine an insult to the billion Hindus and Buddhists in the world who believe in reincarnation...

rainsmom · Jun 6, 2011

cherita said:
Demons and mythological beings are absolutely fantasy. Reincarnation by itself, on the other hand, is not. That anyone would classify it as fantasy (without any other fantastic elements present in the story) is mystifying to me, and I would imagine an insult to the billion Hindus and Buddhists in the world who believe in reincarnation...

In fairness, there are an awful lot of religions in the world that believe demons are real too. Just because you don't doesn't make them fantasy. Or, at least, no more so than reincarnation's being fantasy to someone who doesn't believe in it.

cherita · Jun 6, 2011

rainsmom said:
In fairness, there are an awful lot of religions in the world that believe demons are real too. Just because you don't doesn't make them fantasy. Or, at least, no more so than reincarnation's being fantasy to someone who doesn't believe in it.

But demons and mythological creatures are already a mainstay of fantasy -- and have been since long before I was even born. Reincarnation as a "fantastic element" all on its own is not (not saying it may never have been used and classified as fantasy, but it's certainly not a mainstay). So I fail to see your point.

latourdumoine · Jun 7, 2011

areteus said:
I think it could go either way... if the demons and beings from mythology actually appear and/or someone actually does get reincarnated and it is clearly what has happened (not, for example, some hypnotherapy induced memories which may or may not be real depending on your personal beliefs) then yes, absolutely place it in fantasy.

If, however, you are talking about demons or there is some doubt regarding whether the person really is reincarnated or not then you could say this is not fantasy...

A good fiction work on this topic is Foccault's Pendulum by Umberto Eco. Its a little difficult to get into the style at times (translation from Italian is a little ropey in places) but once you get over that it is a good little black comedy about occult, theological and gnostic beliefs between the 11th and 20th centuries - especially bearing in mind that Eco is a professor of theology. I am always amused by his comment on Rosicrucians - anyone who claimed to be a Rosicrucian probably wasn't, why would members of a so called secret society tell anyone about it?

Thanks. Love Eco's work. And I totally agree about the Rosicrucians. I guess, in a lot of ways, it's like bragging about knowing someone famous today. If you really were their friend, why brag about it, you'd want to ensure their privacy.

Demons are a tough line to walk. To the best of my knowledge, most, if not all, the religions deal with them on one level or another. But they've been taken out of context so many times, I can see both sides of the argument, it being insulting to religions (which isn't my intention at all), and people being so used to the concept and portrayal of demons, it can only be classed as Fantasy. It probably also depends on how you portray them as well. But I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees this as not all that straightforward to classify.

And yeah, reincarnation is presented as a fact.

Amy LaBonte · Jun 16, 2011

If you classify your work as fantasy then you will be educating your fantasy readers. If you classify your work as religious fiction then you might be titillating the religious people!

richcapo · Aug 26, 2011

areteus said:
why would members of a so called secret society tell anyone about it?

Agree. If I was, say, a Freemason, I wouldn't let anyone know.

_Richard

ironmikezero · Aug 26, 2011

latourdumoine - What did you decide?

As you can see, everyone has an opinion, and you will surely not satisfy all who would offer such guidance. Some even suggest that if you're not offending someone, your work isn't honest enough. In the end, the only opinion that really matters is your own. Don't sweat the genre labels - even the best of definitions are fluid and fuzzy. Call it what you will and move forward - you can only grow.

If you've sparked controversy, so much the better - your work will be read and discussed.

Richard - traveling man, eh? Been to the East?

richcapo · Aug 26, 2011

Never led a lodge, but went York and will be going Scottish in a month or so. May do the Shrine, but am far more interested in pursuing membership in the more esoteric, invitational York offshoot orders, so we'll see about that.

The only reason why I haven't pursued the east is because my memory stinks. I could never recite all that wonderful stuff off the top of my head, and my lodge is THE best in the area for degree work -- I'm not sharp enough for its ritual work, which is too bad because I have a lot of ideas for the Craft that I'd like to see put in play as the Master of my lodge.

How about you?

_Richard

lbender · Aug 26, 2011

I agree - could go either way. Personally, I always thought a gnostic was someone who made gnocchi.

Curious about one other thing - I understand there are freemasons. Are there other masons who are being oppressed in some way?

richcapo · Aug 26, 2011

I don't feel oppressed as a Mason. I get a lot of guff on YouTube and other online forums about my membership in the Craft from conspiracy theorists, but that's it.

As I understand, Masons do face grave oppression in authoritarian regimes, particularly hardline Islamic regimes, however. My heart goes out to them.

If you have any other questions, let me know. (And perhaps we should move this conversation to another board.)

_Richard

schamber · Sep 29, 2011

Maybe slightly off topic, but there's a wonderful book about secret societies by Charles Portis, the same guy who wrote True Grit. It's called Masters of Atlantis. Highly recommend to anyone writing in this genre.

ResearchGuy · Oct 9, 2011

schamber said:
. . . Charles Portis, . . . Masters of Atlantis. Highly recommend to anyone writing in this genre.

I bought several remaindered first-edition copies of this novel when I saw them many years ago. I still have a few. It is an underappreciated work of genius, IMHO.

--Ken

GeorgeK · Oct 12, 2011

latourdumoine said:
The basic premise is reincarnation and it contains a discussion on religious beliefs between a church elder and a girl (a Gnostic) in the Middle Ages.
.

She obviously found a very liberal elder (some did exist) for him to bother discussing philosophy with a child who was also a girl as well as a gnostic.

latourdumoine · Oct 20, 2011

Sorry guys, this one totally slipped through my fingers, must have forgotten to click on subscribe.

ironmikezero said:
latourdumoine - What did you decide?

As you can see, everyone has an opinion, and you will surely not satisfy all who would offer such guidance. Some even suggest that if you're not offending someone, your work isn't honest enough. In the end, the only opinion that really matters is your own. Don't sweat the genre labels - even the best of definitions are fluid and fuzzy. Call it what you will and move forward - you can only grow.

If you've sparked controversy, so much the better - your work will be read and discussed.

Thought I had it locked up as Gothic (going by what an expert in the field who taught me once suggested) but in the course of my research for potential markets, I now also have Interstitial, Fantasy, Paranormal and Horror in the mix.

I do agree to a certain extent that controversy leading to discussion is great. The problem is, no religious market would accept it, and having been raised between two faiths, I really don't want to push the envelope on that one. Discussion is great, especially if different points of view are involved, doing it to p**** someone off, just for the sake of it, not so much (which I feel I'd be doing if I submitted it to the religious market). Personally, I believe in reincarnation, but I can understand how it would make someone really uncomfortable.

GeorgeK said:
She obviously found a very liberal elder (some did exist) for him to bother discussing philosophy with a child who was also a girl as well as a gnostic.

Yeah, some of them did exist. And I'm not trying to take sides here, because both viewpoints are valid in the story. What I mean is, I'm not coming down on the side of, X=good, Y=bad. He is liberal to some extent, but not quite that liberal.

Think I'll try them all

Gnosticism - interstitial or fantasy?

latourdumoine

Where nightmares continously breed

cherita

shadowwalker

empty-nester!

latourdumoine

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areteus

cherita

rainsmom

Feeling like an old timer

cherita

latourdumoine

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Amy LaBonte

richcapo

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ironmikezero

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richcapo

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lbender

richcapo

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schamber

Dumas. Alexandre Dumas.

ResearchGuy

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GeorgeK

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latourdumoine

Where nightmares continously breed