Non-Paying Markets

Sam I Am · May 7, 2011

If a piece you wrote is accepted to a non-paying outlet, or one that accepts an extremely high percentage of submissions, is it still worthwhile to mention that credit to other publishers?

I've looked on Duotrope and found the list of most accepting publishers for short fiction. Most are non-paying, but I'm still considering submitting some flash fiction work to gain some credits under my belt.

Good idea or not?

Nathaniel Katz · May 7, 2011

I doubt an unselective publication would impress any publisher's, though it could get your name out to reader's if those publications do have a number of readers. Personally, I wouldn't do it for anything longer than a twitter length story.

Sam I Am · May 7, 2011

Should the credit be included when you submit your work, if they ask for it? Or is it better to leave it out and only focus on other credits (if any)?

Nathaniel Katz · May 7, 2011

Personally, I would focus on only credits from semi pro magazines or better. I'm certainly no expert on these matters, though.

shelleyo · May 7, 2011

Just the fact that a market is non-paying shouldn't matter much, particularly in literary markets where several well-respected publications pay copies or token amounts.

Markets that take most of what they're sent probably don't impress most editors. Why not try your flashes with other markets and see what kind of a response you get? If your story is good, most (maybe all) won't care if you've never been published before.

Shelley

Izz · May 7, 2011

Sam I Am said:
Should the credit be included when you submit your work, if they ask for it? Or is it better to leave it out and only focus on other credits (if any)?

As Shelley said, it depends on the market. If it's a market that accepts 90% (or any other high percentage) of what comes their way, then it'd be best not to mention it as a credit in a cover letter.

Personally, if i'm subbing a story to pro mags, i'll typically only include pro sales or sales to highly-respected zines as credits in the cover letter (or no credits if i don't have an applicable sale). If i'm subbing to a semi-pro or lower-paying i'll widen the net a bit (but i never mention more than 3 credits).

Most of the time, previous credits don't matter when it comes to selling a short story. The strength of the story itself is the key.

The_Red_Wing · May 11, 2011

What about a non-paying market that only has a 3% acceptance rate? Would that be something to put on your resume?

MJNL · May 11, 2011

The_Red_Wing said:
What about a non-paying market that only has a 3% acceptance rate? Would that be something to put on your resume?

Only if it's highly respected. I'm most familiar with sci-fi/fantasy pubs, and as far as I know nothing below a few well known semi-pros is worth mentioning in that genre, regardless of acceptance rate.

ETA: Remember, poor credits can be worse than no credits. A bunch of non-paying publications can signal to the big-leagues that you've found your niche--well below pro. No credits simply says "I'm new" and provides no subtext on the quality of your work.

gcalcaterra · May 11, 2011

Sam I Am,

I'd have to say that having some publication credits, even from a non-paying market, is better than having no credits. Having said that, it's always best to start at the top when submitting a piece. Submit your story to the best magazines you think you have a shot of getting in, starting with pro mags, then working your way down. There's nothing wrong with a low- or no-paying market, as long is it's still a quality magazine. This is why it's important to research the magazine/journal. Don't just look at the Duotrope listing; actually go take a look at the magazine's website, and if it's a print mag, go to a book store and flip through a copy. Does it look professional? Are the stories inside worth a damn? Would you be proud to have your story included in their mag, or embarrassed? That's ultimately what it comes down to, is whether you give your story a good home or not. If you don't have good standards for yourself, then editors certainly will not.

Jamesaritchie · May 12, 2011

In general, no, non-paying markets are not only something you shouldn't mention, listing the wrong ones can actually harm you. It tells the agent or editor that the only places you've found to be published are ones that don't believe you're writing is worth paying for.
The editor will also assume you tried paying markets first, and received only rejections.

Even listing a string of nothing but very low-paying markets can do you harm.

And contrary to what many think, worthwhile literary magazines almost always pay something, and the better ones pay quite a bit.

Rufus Leeking · May 12, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
In general, no, non-paying markets are not only something you shouldn't mention, listing the wrong ones can actually harm you. It tells the agent or editor that the only places you've found to be published are ones that don't believe you're writing is worth paying for.

but there are low pay ($40 or so) literary pubs that reject 98% of what they get. I know Glimmer Train rejects 99.9% of what it gets but getting past 98% ain't peanuts.

I can see what you're saying for places that accept 50% or whatever, but doesn't getting into a place that reject the majority of what it sees say "I can at least write, sort of?"

I was in an online class a long time ago under Zoetrope and on of its slush readers admitted it accepts NO unsolicted work. It isn't easy to break into this literary market.

shelleyo · May 12, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
And contrary to what many think, worthwhile literary magazines almost always pay something, and the better ones pay quite a bit.

Alaska Quarterly Review, The Sewanee Review, South Carolina Review, The Greensboro Review and many other similar publications are all extremely worthwhile, despite the fact that they don't regularly pay contributors. They're not just worthwhile for the ability to mention them in a cover letter, but the O. Henry Award, to list just one example, has been given to stories that all appeared within their pages. These aren't the only non-paying examples.

It's fair to say that there are many worthwhile literary magazines that pay. It's also fair to say there are many other worthwhile publications that don't.

Shelley

shelleyo · May 12, 2011

Rufus Leeking said:
but there are low pay ($40 or so) literary pubs that reject 98% of what they get. I know Glimmer Train rejects 99.9% of what it gets but getting past 98% ain't peanuts.

I can see what you're saying for places that accept 50% or whatever, but doesn't getting into a place that reject the majority of what it sees say "I can at least write, sort of?"

I was in an online class a long time ago under Zoetrope and on of its slush readers admitted it accepts NO unsolicted work. It isn't easy to break into this literary market.

Everything depends on the market in question. There are no absolutes.

A non-paying market that rejects most of what it gets still might not be very good. Look at the other people accepted there. Look at their list of publications. What's the general quality? That will help you determine whether or not you want to list the market in your cover letter.

"Biff's Blogspot Fiction Funhouse" might only accept 1% of contributors, but that doesn't mean the 1% is any good. Look up the names of the writers you find there and see where they've been published. Google the name of publication to see what people are saying about it. Just use common sense.

There are plenty of non-paying markets that I'd list on a cover letter. But only certain ones, and maybe only under certain circumstances.

Shelley

alexshvartsman · May 12, 2011

When it comes to SF/F there is a number of excellent markets that pay very little, but are a very desirable writing credit nevertheless. Shimmer and ASIM come to mind. I can't think of *any* non-paying SF/F markets I'd include in a cover letter though.

zanzjan · May 12, 2011

alexshvartsman said:
When it comes to SF/F there is a number of excellent markets that pay very little, but are a very desirable writing credit nevertheless. Shimmer and ASIM come to mind. I can't think of *any* non-paying SF/F markets I'd include in a cover letter though.

Much the same as what I was going to say. There've been a few token-pay markets I've submitted to because they've stood out as either being potentially significant or personally interesting, but that's the exception, not the rule. I've never submitted anything to a non-paying market.

One way to get a sense of the level at which a market is regarded, aside from picking up a copy and reading what they print (HINT: if you cringe at the contents, you don't want to be in that company -- never let yourself get desperate enough to believe otherwise) is to see where it's getting reviewed. ASIM shows up periodically in reviews in LOCUS, frex.

Not sure what the equivalent is for mainstream, but I think the whole non-pay/token vs. semi-pro/pro thing as it applies to respect/prestige is very, very different anyway.

-Suzanne

alexshvartsman · May 12, 2011

I submit regularly to a few token markets, but it's because I enjoy reading what they publish. Every Day Fiction is a perfect example - I read at least half of their stories (and while there are some I don't like, there are often some real gems found there). EDF was also the first 'zine to publish me when I started out - so I send them an occasional story and I'm always glad to be accepted there.

So basically what I'm saying is, submit to token- or even non-pay markets if you enjoy reading them and will derive pleasure from having your stories appear with them, but don't do it for the credit.

Motley · May 12, 2011

This is a very helpful thread since I'm beginning to sub shorts in earnest.

I wonder if being published at these no-pay or low-pay places hurts you even if you don't mention them in a query or cover letter. Will the publication editor Google your writing name? Will they be put off by insignificant publications or could it help by demonstrating increased name recognition in the market?

Izz · May 12, 2011

Motley said:
This is a very helpful thread since I'm beginning to sub shorts in earnest.

I wonder if being published at these no-pay or low-pay places hurts you even if you don't mention them in a query or cover letter. Will the publication editor Google your writing name? Will they be put off by insignificant publications or could it help by demonstrating increased name recognition in the market?

Hi Motley

The main thing is the story. An editor isn't going to turn down an amazing story if they google you and find you've been pubbed by a lot of no-paying, no-name markets. They aren't going to turn down an amazing story if you've never been pubbed anywhere. Once they read the story and love it, it'll be hard to turn them off (unless when googling you they find you're into editor-abuse and rejection-burning and other stuff that might make you difficult to work with

).

However, first impressions are often important. Not all editors read cover letters before reading the story, but if they do and see a long list of credits that involve zines that don't pay and publish everything that comes across their desk they might be less objective than they would otherwise.

But, as has been said, not all low or no-pay markets are bad credits. Lady Churchill's Rosebud Wristlet doesn't pay much, but is exceptionally well-regarded in the spec fic industry. Other markets (both lit and genre) have been mentioned too as good credits. It's really something you need to take on a case-by-case basis.

Jamesaritchie · May 13, 2011

Rufus Leeking said:
but there are low pay ($40 or so) literary pubs that reject 98% of what they get. I know Glimmer Train rejects 99.9% of what it gets but getting past 98% ain't peanuts.

I can see what you're saying for places that accept 50% or whatever, but doesn't getting into a place that reject the majority of what it sees say "I can at least write, sort of?"

I was in an online class a long time ago under Zoetrope and on of its slush readers admitted it accepts NO unsolicted work. It isn't easy to break into this literary market.

Yes, getting into a magazine that rejects 99.9% of what it sees says something good about your writing, and any good magazine rejects at least this much. Usually more.

It's an odd thing, but one such credit is good. Ten such low paying credits is generally not good, unless you have a bigger credit mixed in.

It's a case of, "Okay, you sold there, and that's good, but you seem to be stuck in the low-pay markets, and that's bad."

If you have such credits, list only a couple, not seven or eight.

And darned few no-pay markets matter to anyone, or impress anyone.

I've heard that about Zoetrope, but I also know writers who claim to have sold stories there by sending in unsolicited manuscripts, so I don't what to believe.

Jamesaritchie · May 13, 2011

Izz said:
Hi Motley

The main thing is the story. An editor isn't going to turn down an amazing story if they google you and find you've been pubbed by a lot of no-paying, no-name markets. They aren't going to turn down an amazing story if you've never been pubbed anywhere. Once they read the story and love it, it'll be hard to turn them off (unless when googling you they find you're into editor-abuse and rejection-burning and other stuff that might make you difficult to work with ).

However, first impressions are often important. Not all editors read cover letters before reading the story, but if they do and see a long list of credits that involve zines that don't pay and publish everything that comes across their desk they might be less objective than they would otherwise.

But, as has been said, not all low or no-pay markets are bad credits. Lady Churchill's Rosebud Wristlet doesn't pay much, but is exceptionally well-regarded in the spec fic industry. Other markets (both lit and genre) have been mentioned too as good credits. It's really something you need to take on a case-by-case basis.

In a perfect world, you'd be right, but this isn't a perfect world. Editors always receive more good stories than they can use, and because of this, they often resort to choosing writers, not stories.

When you have five good stories, and only one open slot, this happens often.

Rufus Leeking · May 13, 2011

Jamesaritchie said:
Yes, getting into a magazine that rejects 99.9% of what it sees says something good about your writing, and any good magazine rejects at least this much. Usually more.

It's an odd thing, but one such credit is good. Ten such low paying credits is generally not good, unless you have a bigger credit mixed in.

It's a case of, "Okay, you sold there, and that's good, but you seem to be stuck in the low-pay markets, and that's bad."

If you have such credits, list only a couple, not seven or eight.

And darned few no-pay markets matter to anyone, or impress anyone.

this makes sense. thanks.

I've heard that about Zoetrope, but I also know writers who claim to have sold stories there by sending in unsolicited manuscripts, so I don't what to believe.

the guy was one of the slush readers and in an online chat room he said they take nothing (of course there may be a story or two a year) from slush. They approach people already established for the great bulk of their stories. It was pretty discouraging.

gcalcaterra · May 14, 2011

I'm with Shellyo on this, and stand by what I said earlier. And here's something I'll add that no one told me when I was first starting (or maybe I just didn't want to hear it): as a beginning writer, the chances of you getting into a top-tier magazine in any genre (i.e. Glimmer Train, Alaska Quarterly, F&SF, Asimov's, Alfred Hitchcock's, etc.) are pretty much nil. Becoming a good writer takes years, if not decades, of perfecting your craft. You do that by writing, writing, and writing more. With short stories, start at the top when submitting, but don't be surprised when those rejections from pro-mags come in. Work your way down the scale until you find a home for you story, and if you get to the point where there aren't any mags left (print, online, paying or otherwise) that you think are good enough for your story, then you shelve that story for the time being. I've had stories that racked up upwards of 30 rejections before finding a home, I've placed stories with non paying markets I'm very proud of, and I've retired stories I thought were great at the time but years later realized editors were right in rejecting.

From an editor's perspective, I'd rather work with a writer who's paid his/her dues and worked their way up from amateur publications and continued to grow as a writer. I see no shame in writing and publishing in non-paying mags.

ardenbird · May 16, 2011

I'd say if it's all you got, put it -- assuming its just a story or two. That shows, hey, I know about submitting and I've at least once gotten to the next stage.

If you've got other credits, leave it off. It's like a resume: a student applying for summer jobs might put that they're captain of their high-school whatever-team; by the time one's had a few real jobs, that would fall off the bottom as insignificant.

Once I sell just one more story, I'm planning to say something like "short fiction, including stories in X and Y" where X and Y are my two-top hitters

The_Red_Wing · May 16, 2011

So can we safely assume that any journal that gives semi-pro to pro payment is something to put on your resume?

Stijn Hommes · May 22, 2011

Non-paying markets can be a legitimate credit. Just make sure they have a solid reputation. A publication that is not selective won't impress the reader of your query and may well work against you.

Non-Paying Markets

Man on a Mission.

The Evil Hat

Man on a Mission.

The Evil Hat

Just another face in a red jumpsuit

Doing the Space Operatic

A Little Lost

Author of Dark Speculative Fiction

Just another face in a red jumpsuit

Just another face in a red jumpsuit

killin' all teh werds

New kid, be gentle!

Doing the Space Operatic

Author of Dark Speculative Fiction

Know what you write...