My Beta Won't Take My Advice

rosepetal720 · May 2, 2011

I have a beta reader who's a godsend. She's done amazing work on my book. She's offered to mail me helpful books, she wants to keep up a working relationship, she wants to meet me at writer's conferences, and she's represented by an agent I want.

She sent me a revised version of her first chapter after I made my critiques. Come to find out, she didn't make any of the changes I recommended. I even asked her if she sent my the wrong version on accident. They were all changes I felt very strongly about... most of the chapter was hard to understand.

I'm so angry! I've spent a lot of time on her book, and I feel like all that time was wasted. I know it's her book and she should keep it the way she likes it, but if she doesn't like what I'm telling her to do, then aren't we both wasting valuable time? I could spend that effort working on my own novel.

I don't want to lose her as a partner because the relationship is so beneficial to me (though heaven knows what she's getting out of it). But I don't know if I can grit my teeth and put in all the work to finish her book when it won't make a difference.

This isn't just a rant. I seriously don't know what to do. Help!

strictlytopsecret · May 2, 2011

Let it go.

Respect her enough to allow her to make what you believe are mistakes, and she will learn from them.

Good luck with your decision,
~STS~

rosepetal720 · May 2, 2011

In other words, continue wasting my time even though I'm going to hate every minute of it.

I agree with you, it is a matter of respect and I can't make her decisions for her. It's just so much time to waste.

Chase · May 2, 2011

rosepetal720 said:
This isn't just a rant. I seriously don't know what to do. Help!

It's being discussed in another thread. My opinion--and it's just that--is I'd work hard to pull in my ego and not cut off my nose to spite my face.

Others have lines they draw and hem and haw about reasons, but my advice is always offered on a take-it-or-leave-it basis.

On the other side of the coin, if a critique partner dictated his or her writing style as a condition to continuing or insisted I change "happy" to "glad" or our trading is done, then our trading would indeed be done and good luck to the other writer's book.

Chris P · May 2, 2011

That doesn't mean you should keep spending countless hours doing crits. Maybe give it another chance but if she doesn't take any suggestions ask her if you are being helpful to her. It's nothing personal, it's just you might not be providing the type of help she wants and there might be better ways to use your time. This doesn't mean she can't continue to help you, either. Maybe she's okay with mentoring you without getting anything in return. It doesn't have to be completely equal as long as both of you are okay with that.

rosepetal720 · May 2, 2011

Where else is this being discussed? I'm eager to hear how others are handling this.

thothguard51 · May 2, 2011

You are not her agent or editor...

She is free to make her choices on what to accept and what not to accept. It's her story, not yours...

veinglory · May 2, 2011

The author is under no obligation whatsoever to use the beta's suggestion. Which is why I generally make beta suggestions as comments. And of the author really only wants proofreading, then that's what I do.

whacko · May 2, 2011

Hey RP,

It seems a fair trade off. The Beta is a godsend for you, so it's not as if you're wasting your time. She's still taking time and giving valuable advice on your stuff.

But Beta reading isn't collaboration. You don't have to make every change that's suggested. She's maybe taken your advice on board but prefers what she had. So as long as you make the effort in return, it's polite, it's fair, and nobody gets hurt.

The Beta experience works trumps because we get an impartial view of everything that we imply. We know our story inside out, but sometimes don't express that hidden knowledge as clearly we hope to. But ultimately, it's up to the writer to make the decision about chopping and changing things.

Regards

Whacko

strictlytopsecret · May 2, 2011

rosepetal720 said:
In other words, continue wasting my time even though I'm going to hate every minute of it.

I agree with you, it is a matter of respect and I can't make her decisions for her. It's just so much time to waste.

I suppose that hinges largely on your definition of "waste".

You indicated that you are benefiting from the relationship. If she did not sense some sort of benefit (in whatever form) as well, she would not continue the relationship.

The benefit she receives may not be in the form of immediate edits she makes based on your recommendations.

Examining the source of your anger may help shed some light.

Are you angry because you feel disrespected?
Are you angry because you feel cheated?
Are you angry because you feel jealous?
Are you angry because fill-in-the-blank?

It can be frustrating when you want someone to behave or respond in a certain way, but they choose otherwise. The bottom line, however, is that her work is hers. And your work is yours.

Both of you are free to make use of editing suggestions as you see fit.

~STS~

scarletpeaches · May 2, 2011

It's her book. She can do what she likes with it.

amrose · May 2, 2011

strictlytopsecret said:
Examining the source of your anger may help shed some light.

I think this is really good advice and I try to follow it whenever I get angry or frustrated with the writing/critique process.

rosepetal720 · May 2, 2011

Are you angry because you feel disrespected?

Are you angry because you feel cheated?

Are you angry because you feel jealous?

Are you angry because fill-in-the-blank?

That's a good question. I'm angry because I was going to work on my book today, but I decided to work on her book instead. I hope I don't come off as haughty or how-dare-you-not-listen-to-me. I just feel a little sick knowing that every minute I'm working on her book needlessly, I could be making a difference in my book.

Whacko, you're right. I'm still getting everything I wanted, right? It's like getting paid to be at a job where you don't do anything important.

Adobedragon · May 2, 2011

rosepetal720 said:
In other words, continue wasting my time even though I'm going to hate every minute of it.

I agree with you, it is a matter of respect and I can't make her decisions for her. It's just so much time to waste.

Well ... doing the beta thing has improved my own writing tremendously. It's taught me how to look at my own writing critically. So I don't think it's a waste of time, even if the writer doesn't make any of the changes I suggest. (Because I do most of my beta/critique reading over at Critters, I usually don't have any kind of relationship with the writer.)

So, the question is does reading and commenting on her work help you? Also, as Chris P suggested up thread, maybe you could simply ask her if your advice was useful to her? Maybe she's looking for something different in a critique.

JoNightshade · May 2, 2011

Okay, so, based on the following bits of your original post...

rosepetal720 said:
They were all changes I felt very strongly about...

If she doesn't like what I'm telling her to do, then aren't we both wasting valuable time?

I don't know if I can grit my teeth and put in all the work to finish her book when it won't make a difference.

It sounds like you're way too invested in her book. It almost sounds like you feel it's YOUR book. It's not. It's hers. She gets to make the choices. Regardless of the quality of her writing, you should never be "telling" someone what to do in a critique. It's a suggestion. No more. She can take it or leave it.

CheG · May 2, 2011

Lighten the amount of time/work you put into her book. Maybe she just wants a cheer partner which is totally fine. Give a few comments on what you read but it zounds like you don't need to go into depth.

Other than that- we should all be as lucky as you

backslashbaby · May 2, 2011

I think I've got you

I hate doing any form of busy-work. Period. But just because she didn't make the changes doesn't mean she didn't mull them over and improve her writing from them. I bet you helped her.

I've had great crits where I learned a lot, but I didn't want to change it in that particular story for my own artistic reasons. I still learned from the folks. Definitely. And I use the advice in more traditional stories.

You might ask her if there is any kind of advice she knows she'll skip because she's going a different way. That happens, depending on how she is going about her story. An example: 'you need more suspense early on' when she knows that she positively doesn't want to heighten things till chapter 2 or whatever. That'll save you work, if she's aware of her spots like that.

shadowwalker · May 2, 2011

rosepetal720 said:
I'm angry because I was going to work on my book today, but I decided to work on her book instead.

So you're angry at her because you decided to work on her book instead of your own.

As others have said, the author is under no obligation to do things your way. If you think you're truly wasting your time, you do need to let the author know, politely, so all parties know where they stand. Otherwise she'll keep sending you work and you'll continue to build resentment.

Polenth · May 2, 2011

It might be it's a bad idea for you to see the work again after you've offered comments once. I know I don't usually send work to my critique partner more than once (the exception is if I make major changes specifically based on his feedback).

There are diminishing returns to getting the same person to critique the same piece over and over again. It does also open itself to the problem you're seeing: the potential to be upset if the writer went in a different direction to the advice.

(Though personally, I know we have different tastes over some things... it isn't a big deal to me if nothing is changed. I wouldn't critique it again in that situation obviously, as I have nothing new to say, but it's not a big deal.)

DeaK · May 2, 2011

I would ask her if she could use any of your critique so far. Did she agree with any of your suggestions? Maybe she's still thinking about them. Ask her what kind of crit she is looking for.

Also, if she did revise the chapter, but didn't use any of your specific suggestions, she may still have used your reactions – just not in the way you thought she should.

Anyway, sure, ask her if it's a waste of time for you to crit her work. Ask if there's something else you could do for her instead.

Or just read her book and give your overall impression. I wouldn't want to toss away such a valuable resource just because the person isn't open to the crit (there can be all kinds of reasons for that, and only one of them is that the author truly doesn't think your crit is good).

From your post:

I'm so angry! I've spent a lot of time on her book, and I feel like all that time was wasted. I know it's her book and she should keep it the way she likes it, but if she doesn't like what I'm telling her to do, then aren't we both wasting valuable time? I could spend that effort working on my own novel.

I like to think of critting as being just as much, if not more, about learning for me, as for the person I'm critting. Maybe it will help you to see it that way? Then it's never a waste of time.

You also say "... if she doesn't like what I'm telling her to do..." which makes me want to suggest that you may be looking at beta-ing from an 'unusual' perspective. IMO it is not about telling someone what to do – it is more about sharing your impressions of the work, and if you want, making suggestions for improvements. However, the best improvements will hopefully come from the author, themselves, perhaps based on your impressions.

Smish · May 2, 2011

I don't think it's ever a waste of time to critique a piece, because I always learn something in the process. I'm very happy when my advice helps someone, but if they decide not to listen to a word I say, I never feel like I've completely wasted my time. It's good practice, after all, for my own work.

And this is a writer who apparently can write fairly well, since she's agented (and apparently has an agent that you find desirable). So, if she doesn't take your advice, she'll probably be okay (she'll make corrections in revision/editing stages, or her agent and/or editor will make suggestions/corrections later), so you don't need to take so much upon yourself.

I'd suggest asking her what sort of critique she's interested in, that way you'll know what type of advice to give. For example, if a critique partner is reading my first draft, I don't expect (or really even want) a detailed, line by line critique; I'd prefer big picture stuff. The nitpicky stuff comes later.

Chase · May 2, 2011

backslashbaby said:
But just because she didn't make the changes doesn't mean she didn't mull them over and improve her writing from them.

DeaK said:
Maybe she's still thinking about them.

These are very real possibilities. The one person who I had go ballistic and get all bridge-burning nasty did so while I was thinking over suggestions. My reaction was, "Why should you even care?"

Like others, I don't even want to see revisions, unless I'm specifically asked to do so. Changes -- or not -- are my partner's business, not mine.

Sarah Madara · May 2, 2011

When a reader suggests a change, I do one of three things:
1) Make the change
2) Decide that something was wrong, but then disagree with the specific diagnosis. Make a different change.
3) Keep my writing as is, after thinking it through. At the end of the process I have a better idea of why I've made the decision I have.

No matter what, I end up with more deliberate choices in my writing, and a clearer vision of what each sentence is supposed to accomplish. Unheeded advice is not wasted advice.

Nightmelody · May 2, 2011

Like Sarah Madara, I will consider the changes suggested. Sometimes I will see there is an issue but the solution that works for me is none of the suggestions. I usually get several beta reads of the same wip that I suspect needs some changes. I have never even once a sent my revisions back to a beta after I have made changes--plus I might not remember who suggested what change. But I read and consider them.

A beta reader isn't an editor and I am not looking for a proof reader but for more global story and plot issues.

Sometimes I've received beta reads that want absolutley everything changed. I write those off as a reader who doesn't get my voice or has a strong dislike for the type of story I am telling and wants me to tell something else. No hard feelings, I thank them for their time--but I won't send anything to them again.

Silver King · May 2, 2011

Chase said:
It's being discussed in another thread....

rosepetal720 said:
Where else is this being discussed? I'm eager to hear how others are handling this.

Chase might be referring to this thread. It's a few pages long and worth a read, from start to finish.

My Beta Won't Take My Advice

Let the wild rumpus start!

practical experience, FTW

Let the wild rumpus start!

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Likes metaphors mixed, not stirred

Let the wild rumpus start!

A Gentleman of a refined age...

volitare nequeo

Keeping up with the class

practical experience, FTW

is Envy Augustine

Let the wild rumpus start!

has finally arrived

~~~~*~~~~

empty-nester!

Mushroom

Reads more than she writes.

It Takes All of Us to End Racism

Freeway stomper extraordinaire

Megalops Erectus

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