Reproducing Asexually through Budding in Fantasy

Ardent Kat · Apr 27, 2011

In my fantasy WIP, the setting is a fascist city-state populated by humans and governed by three tyrannical Fay. Although they look basically humanoid; I wanted to make the Fay distinctly nonhuman in their psychology, and monstrous in their morality.

To make my Fay distinctly nonhuman, I thought about having them reproduce asexually by budding. From Wikipedia:

Budding is a form of asexual reproduction in which a new organism grows on another one. The new organism remains attached as it grows, separating from the parent organism only when it is mature. Since the reproduction is asexual, the newly created organism is a clone and is genetically identical to the parent organism.

If a Fay began budding, it might grow something like a cancerous lump on its breastbone, which would gradually swell and grow to the size of a canteloup, then drop off (being "born") and be its own young creature.

I wanted to brainstorm some of the ramifications of this type of asexual reproduction in fantasy stories, so I'd love to hear your thoughts.

A few thoughts I've been churning around:
Where would the budding begin? Most living things that bud are extremely primitive animals (worms) or plant bulbs (like tulips). If a more complex humanoid creature were to bud, it would need the initial growth to be somewhere out of the way. If a new life began budding from its head or limbs, that might impede movement, so I thought the chest, abdomen, or back would be the most likely place.

At what point is the new life considered developed enough to separate from the original host and be its own independent creature? Would it drop off in a sac (like a soft-shelled egg) to further gestate and then "hatch" or would it already look fully developed (limbs and head) before dropping off the original host?

Since budding produces a creature that's genetically a clone, how can I make each of my three Fay characters (eldest, middle, and youngest) distinctly different in temperament and appearance so they're unique characters for the reader?

By definition, these asexual creatures would be neither "he" nor "she," but the Fay in my story want to appear as human as possible to endear themselves to the population and inspire loyalty. Thus, I thought the "core model" of Fay might be neuter, but could wear clothes or wigs that make them appear distinctly feminine or masculine, thus masking their alien sexlessness and appearing unique and more relatable to their human subjects.

But is there a way besides just clothes and wigs that I could justify a change in appearance? I was thinking that seasonal or environmental influence might give them different skin color. A newly budded "child" that was born during a time of year with little sunlight might develop to look different than a "child" born in summer, or one born (budded) during famine would look different than one born during harvest.

I figure upbringing and life experience would be enough to explain a difference in temperament (like identical twins who grow up to have very different personalities)

This is a fantasy story so a modest amount of hand-waving and unexplained physiology are fine by me, but I wanted to make them just realistic enough that they were creepy and somewhat plausible in their otherness.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on the repercussions of asexual budding for a complex humanoid creature (needn't apply to my WIP specifically).

Sarpedon · Apr 27, 2011

Hmm, a delightfully disgusting question.

I'd expect something that reproduces that way to have specialized budding organs. I agree that they would probably be on the chest or back of a humanoid animal, but if you want to get really gross you could put them on the face, neck, or groin.

The question of how developed the offspring would be at the time of leaving the sac is simply a question of how independant it has to be at the time of birth. A zebra can run minutes after birth. A human needs years of care. A kangaroo is born inches long and eyeless.

As far as uniqueness, your species could have a more plastic form of gene expression; which means essentially how genes are activated to form different sorts of tissues during development. The power of this is clear in the common caterpillar; the caterpillar is genetically identical to the butterfly.

lbender · Apr 27, 2011

The thought of complex humanoids budding is sufficiently creepy for me that little else is needed to add to the creep quotient. The main problem I see would be origin, though. Asexual reproduction does quite a number on evolution and adaptability. That leads to the question of how these creatures developed. Evolution with sexual reproduction takes long enough. I have no idea how many millions of years of mutations would be required to work up a complex humanoid without it.

The main solution I can come up with is that someone, somewhere, cooked them up in a lab, fully developed as they are. That leads to who and why and what happened to the creators.

I'm getting ahead of myself, but origin is the main issue for me.

thothguard51 · Apr 27, 2011

Perhaps your Fay could have a pouch, like a Kangaroo. Once the budding takes place and gestation reaches full metamorphosis, so to speak, the hatchling (for want of a better term), then makes it way to the pouch where it continues to grow and suckle until it can walk on its own.

I don't like the idea of the hatchling being fully developed as in can walk, talk and chew bubble gum as soon as it is...hatched?

thothguard51 · Apr 27, 2011

I've given this some more thought.

It seems to me there are no male or female Fays in your world, just asexual Fay that are capable of reproduction. Id this is the case, then distinguishing between the Fay (as in male or female), just got a bit more complicated I would think.

While budding is weird in and of itself, this does not mean the Fay can not have offspring in the same manner as a human. The Fay could produce both sperm and eggs and go through regular gestation and birthing like a human. This would allow for normal development of the off spring without burdening the birth parent with odd growths or lugging an offspring around in a pouch until it is of age...

Of course, it you are going for the total shock value of the budding, then by all means please continue...

Reziac · Apr 27, 2011

There are Terran creatures that use both sexual and asexual reproduction, depending on what's available. And asexual is not necessarily counter-adaptive, as the legions of bacteria and other single-celled organisms can attest.

I agree the main question is how far along development is at the time of separation, and how much care the offspring needs. If at separation said offspring is essentially a flatworm, to be dropped into the nearest pond and capable of fending for itself until it matures into something with arms and legs (tadpole to frog, so to speak) then the question of care is moot, and leads to an entirely different type of social framework than where the offspring require extensive care and training.

Euan H. · Apr 27, 2011

Reziac said:
TIf at separation said offspring is essentially a flatworm, to be dropped into the nearest pond and capable of fending for itself until it matures into something with arms and legs (tadpole to frog, so to speak) then the question of care is moot, and leads to an entirely different type of social framework than where the offspring require extensive care and training.

That would be neat. Make the young tadpole stage like leeches or lampreys. Then your Fay rulers could feed the seditious to a pool heaving with their young.

"No, citizen. I am not angry with you. In fact, I'd like you to meet my children..."

And if you want to emphasise alienness, having a larval stage will do that in spades.

lbender · Apr 27, 2011

Reziac said:
There are Terran creatures that use both sexual and asexual reproduction, depending on what's available. And asexual is not necessarily counter-adaptive, as the legions of bacteria and other single-celled organisms can attest.

I agree the main question is how far along development is at the time of separation, and how much care the offspring needs. If at separation said offspring is essentially a flatworm, to be dropped into the nearest pond and capable of fending for itself until it matures into something with arms and legs (tadpole to frog, so to speak) then the question of care is moot, and leads to an entirely different type of social framework than where the offspring require extensive care and training.

The main reason why this type of reproduction/adaptation can work well in bacteria and not so much in complex organisms is speed. Bacteria go through many generations within the space of hours, definitely less than a day. In more complex organisms, the generations go by much more slowly. In addition, genomes of complex organisms are also complex, requiring more significant changes to have a significant effect. I'm not saying it couldn't work, just that it would take a while...a long while.

Having said that, the second part of Reziac's post is very interesting and seems as though it might add a lot...not to mention being even more creepy.

Sarpedon · Apr 27, 2011

Perhaps you can devise a way in which genetic material can be swapped among individuals in a way that may be sexual, but is quite distinct from coitus. For example, bacteria 'swap' genetic material from time to time. Perhaps the developing organism is simply exposed to stray DNA and incorporates some of it at random.

I can think of numerous ways this could be accomplished in your scenario, but will keep them to myself, so as not to distress anyone.

SLF · Apr 27, 2011

Not sure about the specifics but I can tell you about personality/appearance from studying horse clones. Personality is not necessarily genetic. There may be some attributes similar but environment and the way they were raised have a big affect too. So it's perfectly acceptable to have them have very different personalities. As far as appearance goes, it all depends on how the genes work.

here's a picture of the stallion Smart Little Lena and his 5 clones.

all 6 horses have the same TYPE of marking but the individual marking is very different. The genes dictate that the horse is suppose to have a stripe down his face. It doesn't go so far as to say exactly how that stripe should look, just that it should be there. Despite the fact that they're all genetically the same, you wouldn't get confused as to who's who. I can't find any pictures but apparently their leg markings are the same way. The white markings are on the same leg/legs on all 6 horses but the amount of white is different.

SLF · Apr 27, 2011

Forgot, you can also make differences between them that the environment has an effect on. Like, you could make height differences. If one was starved/didn't eat well, he could be shorter than the others. I had a horse that should have been very tall based on her genetics. She was stunted at birth though because her mother wasn't fed when my horse was a baby so she didn't grow. Weight, obviously, can be different. You can look into other environmental factors that affect appearance.

Miriel · Apr 27, 2011

thothguard51 said:
While budding is weird in and of itself, this does not mean the Fay can not have offspring in the same manner as a human. The Fay could produce both sperm and eggs and go through regular gestation and birthing like a human. This would allow for normal development of the off spring without burdening the birth parent with odd growths or lugging an offspring around in a pouch until it is of age...

But, if you're crossing your own genes, instead of duplicating them into a clone...that's like super inbreeding. If you have any bad recessive genes, this would flaunt them. Badly.

I think it's a cool idea. If you don't want to go all out on it, maybe only the nobility do the budding thing -- it would be time-intensive, it could be seen as a big bit a hubris (the world needs two of me!) and, of course, you'd have to have excellent genes to pull it off well (which nobles often think they do).

That said...I don't find budding particularly gross/disturbing. Fay are magic: maybe part of that magic is having this method work and work well for them, despite the problems complex species would otherwise have reproducing this way.

Reziac · Apr 27, 2011

The irregularity is because that's at least partly a mosaic marking. The tendency to mosaic markings inherits strongly, but how it is expressed is subject to external influence (pressure in the womb for one thing). Also, midline markings tend to be influenced by other things that influence fetal development, including apparently-unrelated stuff like dwarfism genes and phytoestrogens in the dam's diet.

As to personality vs nurture, with 13 generations of my own dogs (I'm a pro trainer) and considerable knowledge of a dozen generations before that, there's no question in my mind that personality and even mannerisms are inherited, and that nurture is a relatively small component. However, most are quick to mistake the sponge-like capacity of domestic animals to absorb training as meaning that the rest isn't inherited, and it's not so. In my experience (across over 2500 dogs) you only have about 5% of the personality to work with (the rest is genetically fixed), but the span of that small fragment can seem quite extreme, given different training.

thothguard51 · Apr 27, 2011

I agree about the DNA and inbreeding, but as noted, the Fay are magical so there could be something to this, where they only reproduce at a certain age, like the Klingon's...

By the way, this is not new. I have read other stories where this asexual breeding is part of the norm for certain species of non-humans. Think Enemy Mine, and if I am not mistaken, there was a Conan story where a Wizard had a clone developing on his back, like a hunch back. There have been others...

Reziac · Apr 27, 2011

Jack Vance had some nasty critters who would rape human women, who'd then bring forth a litter of imps that grew into more nasty critters. Apparently the woman was just a host and the nasty critters' reproduction was actually asexual.

defcon6000 · Apr 28, 2011

Reziac said:
Jack Vance had some nasty critters who would rape human women, who'd then bring forth a litter of imps that grew into more nasty critters. Apparently the woman was just a host and the nasty critters' reproduction was actually asexual.

Reminds me of the Alien series, except they throat raped you.

Reziac · Apr 28, 2011

Alien's beasties were essentially like wasps, with an intermediate stage to lay the egg in the living host rather than having mama wasp do it. <eyeing nest of paper wasps by my back porch>

I vaguely recall that amoebas, or something on the same level, sometimes exchange genetic material by merging and then splitting. I suppose there's no real reason higher critters can't do the same... consider sperm as specialized amoebas. A parasite or mosquito-like pest in the environment could also serve the same function.

PeterL · Apr 28, 2011

In one of his Venus novels, Edgar Rice Burroughs had humanoid Amtorians that reproduced by fission. The descriptions were not terribly detailed, but there were differences between the old half and the new half. I'd have to reread it for details.

Hallen · Apr 28, 2011

Some species are "born" pregnant. It seems to me that a critter like you are talking about would want to spawn its offspring young in life so that external genetic forces can't degrade the quality of the offspring (radiation and other factors). This would possibly limit the number of clones to a finite number. Depending on lifespan, you could limit it to 3 or 4 at a time assuming that each individual could only spawn once. This, of course, would make them extremely protective of the youngest one, at least until it produced its offspring. It also causes a problem for them in that it's virtually impossible for them to produce a large population -- maybe this is a limitation they're trying to overcome?

If these Fay want to fit in, then it is possible they could magically "steal" genetic material from humans. This could possibly give them the appearance of a human, without the actual plumbing. Call it a defense mechanism allowing them to blend in with the added benefit of helping them evolve. They may actually even consider the process somewhat disgusting because they're "corrupting" their pure "Fay-ness" with human filth, but they do it so they can remain in power. How you extract the DNA from the human is up to you to make as creepy as you want.

Anyway, those are some random thoughts on the process.

Buffysquirrel · Apr 28, 2011

The ways humans ascertain the sex of a stranger are partly based on cultural norms and partly to do with the physical differences between the sexes. So, in UK culture, someone with long hair is more likely to be female than male, in hirsute societies, someone with a beard more likely to be male than female. Women are on average shorter, have breasts, wider hips than the male, and a different shape at the crotch. So a Fay wanting to look male might want to adopt a codpiece, short hair (if dealing with a human culture where that is a male characteristic), a moustache and/or beard (ditto) and clothing that gives it the appearance of broad shoulders and narrow hips. Male voices tend to be deeper than female, so that's another area in which it might adopt a sex-appropriate behaviour.

In fact, I suspect these Fay might go to extremes in identifying with their chosen sex, so we'd see very butch 'male' Fay and twee little 'female' Fay princesses and not much inbetween, as they'll want to avoid any possibility of doubt creeping in. Look to what the culture with which they're interacting has determined is always 'male' and what is always 'female' (think pink) and apply that to your Fay. Of course, this over-the-top approach in itself might engender doubt, but they might not anticipate that.

Fascinating idea about the budding, but I'm not sure I have anything to contribute!

defcon6000 · Apr 28, 2011

Reziac said:
Alien's beasties were essentially like wasps, with an intermediate stage to lay the egg in the living host rather than having mama wasp do it. <eyeing nest of paper wasps by my back porch>

I vaguely recall that amoebas, or something on the same level, sometimes exchange genetic material by merging and then splitting. I suppose there's no real reason higher critters can't do the same... consider sperm as specialized amoebas. A parasite or mosquito-like pest in the environment could also serve the same function.

Bacteria does that, they exchange plasmids between each other, particularly the ones that make them resistant to antibiotics. I guess they like to share the love. :tongue

defcon6000 · Apr 28, 2011

Buffysquirrel said:
In fact, I suspect these Fay might go to extremes in identifying with their chosen sex, so we'd see very butch 'male' Fay and twee little 'female' Fay princesses and not much inbetween, as they'll want to avoid any possibility of doubt creeping in. Look to what the culture with which they're interacting has determined is always 'male' and what is always 'female' (think pink) and apply that to your Fay. Of course, this over-the-top approach in itself might engender doubt, but they might not anticipate that.

That reminds me of LeGuin's hermaphrodites from Left Hand of Darkness. During their kimmer cycle, one would become the male sex while the other became the female (random who becomes what), and if the female became pregnant, then they'd continue to hold that form for the duration of gestation period. But that's of course sexual reproduction. Having two sexes is only useful for sexual reproduction, if they're asexual, no reason to lean towards appearing masculine or feminine - who are you going to attract?

Reziac · Apr 28, 2011

So perhaps the normally-genderless fay, being confused about this male vs female thing, decides to adopt random bits of both per its personal whim, and thereby achieves neither.

CheG · Apr 28, 2011

But if they reproduce asexually then NO gender identity need be present. I can't see why they'd CARE about m/f in the first place if it plays no purpose in their lives, reproductive or otherwise.

A LOT of personality is actually inborn too which would give them personality differences form the outset.

And I love different methods of reproduction! I come up with a lot based on varying species.

But to the OP- go for it! The fay may not even raise their 'children' if they bud off with enough survival instinct and the ability to function there would be no need to parent at all.

defcon6000 · Apr 28, 2011

Reziac said:
So perhaps the normally-genderless fay, being confused about this male vs female thing, decides to adopt random bits of both per its personal whim, and thereby achieves neither.

Or they could all look like Pat. :tongue

Reproducing Asexually through Budding in Fantasy

Ardent Kat

Kill your television

Sarpedon

lbender

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Reziac

Resident Alien

Euan H.

Unspeakable

lbender

Sarpedon

SLF

SLF

Miriel

New kid, be gentle!

Reziac

Resident Alien

thothguard51

A Gentleman of a refined age...

Reziac

Resident Alien

defcon6000

Reziac

Resident Alien

PeterL

Hallen

Mostly annoying

Buffysquirrel

defcon6000

defcon6000

Reziac

Resident Alien

CheG

defcon6000