Poor man's copyright

shelley · Mar 26, 2011

Hello,

I live in Greece and the poor man's copyright is mostly common here. If it's either about a manuscript or a song a lot of people tend to prefer to send themselves the envelope that they have to keep sealed than go to a company and pay. It's probably about money and after I asked a couple experts I heard some crazy prices.
My question is if a manuscript has to be copyrighted before sent to a publisher, and if it has to does the poor man's copyright have any kind of value in the US or England?

Thank you in advance.

nitaworm · Mar 26, 2011

I know copyright in the US is only about $35 if you upload the document.
http://www.copyright.gov/docs/fees.html

waylander · Mar 26, 2011

A manuscript DOES NOT have to be copyrighted before it is submitted to a publisher or agent

Cyia · Mar 26, 2011

In the US, you own the copyright from the moment the manuscript is in fixed form (printed or on your computer, etc.) It's not registered, but it is yours. Poor Man's Copyright is worthless here (and in the UK, IIRC).

Publishers register the copyright when they're ready to put a book out, so doing it in advance can cause them a hassle.

Uncarved · Mar 26, 2011

And its been widely proven that the "poor man's copyright" doesn't work.

dangerousbill · Mar 26, 2011

shelley said:
My question is if a manuscript has to be copyrighted before sent to a publisher, and if it has to does the poor man's copyright have any kind of value in the US or England?

Don't do it. Sending a copyrighted manuscript would mark you as an amateur. In the US and UK, you have a common-law copyright the moment you write the words down.

The poor man's copyright isn't recognized by the US and UK court systems. It's too easy to fabricate.

dangerousbill · Mar 26, 2011

dangerousbill said:
Don't do it.

If you register the copyright, and the publisher wants to make any changes to it, the altered manuscript is no longer covered by the copyright, while your common-law copyright is still intact.

Sentosa · Mar 26, 2011

dangerousbill said:
Don't do it. Sending a copyrighted manuscript would mark you as an amateur. In the US and UK, you have a common-law copyright the moment you write the words down.

The poor man's copyright isn't recognized by the US and UK court systems. It's too easy to fabricate.

Common law copyright applies in most parts of the English-speaking world and in other jurisdictions.

MJNL · Mar 26, 2011

The publisher will copyright it for you. They don't like it to be copyrighted beforehand, because they'll have to change it later to coincide with the publishing date. It's standard legal practice for them to file it, and I believe it protects them against purchasing first world rights that have already been sold (if you sold the book to a small press, then later sold it to a larger company, they wouldn't be purchasing first world rights, which are are worth a lot more than rights to reprint). If an author was not forthcoming with the fact that it had bee previously published, they can look up the copyright details to be sure. If it has previously been copyrighted but not published, that's a whole nother legal conversation and set of steps that have to be gone through.

At least, this is my understanding. If I'm way off base, someone correct me, please. I'm no expert on why the publisher does it and don't want to labor under wrong info.

And, as others have said, your work is technically copyrighted as soon as you write it. What you are paying for is just the right to file it officially.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 26, 2011

There's a stunningly attractive Copyright FAQ in AW's FAQs.

Did I mention that it was stunningly attractive?

MJNL · Mar 26, 2011

Oooh, it is attractive! Thanks for the link.

Bartholomew · Mar 26, 2011

Medievalist said:
There's a stunningly attractive Copyright FAQ in AW's FAQs.

Did I mention that it was stunningly attractive?

I'm far too stunned to be affected by the attractiveness. Help. Stuck. On. Floor. Lungs. Paralyzed.

x.x

R.I.P Bart Klick
Beloved Dorm Potato
AW Troll Since 2006
Slain by a witty remark

Purple Rose · Mar 26, 2011

Where I live, copyright just means right to copy.

James D. Macdonald · Mar 26, 2011

Yeah, that's what copyright means everywhere: the right to make copies.

blacbird · Mar 26, 2011

James D. Macdonald said:
Yeah, that's what copyright means everywhere: the right to make copies.

To clarify, if necessary: It means that the copyright holder has the right to make copies, and everybody else doesn't, without the expressed permission of the copyright holder.

"Poor man's copyright" is a ridiculous concept that needs a stake driven through its heart. Alas, even that doesn't seem to work. Maybe silver bullets . . .

ResearchGuy · Mar 26, 2011

For U.S. info., see www.copyright.gov -- FAQs and Copyright Basics are good starting points.

In U.S., copyright must be registered with the copyright office in order to sue for infringement. Timely registration gives statutory remedies. So-called "poor man's copyright" is worthless (at least in U.S. -- don't know if there is anywhere that it has any legal value whatsoever, but I doubt it).

If someone makes a point to me that they have registered copyright on a manuscript they are interested in my publishing, I figure they are litigious amateurs and I'll take a pass. I dealt with one like that once, only because she was 97, and I dropped her as a client, despite the novelty value of a 97-year-old first-time author.

My views, FWIW.

--Ken

James D. Macdonald · Mar 26, 2011

Another point about putting a copyright date on a manuscript: Do you really want editors and agents to know how long your manuscript has been kicking around the slush piles?

May I add that many of the "copyright registration services" are scams? Guys who are happy to charge you $200 to do what you could do yourself for $35.

Deleted member 42 · Mar 26, 2011

Please also notice that copywrite and copy writing are not the same thing as copyright.

Please for the love of all that's holy, notice.

maestrowork · Mar 26, 2011

Uncle Jim is right. Besides looking like an litigious amateur, you risk the agents and publishers laughing at that (c) 2005... And consider if your book actually gets published in 2014? That (c) 2004 will haunt you.

shelley · Mar 27, 2011

Thank you all so much! You're all the tops!

whimsical rabbit · Mar 27, 2011

shelley said:
Hello,

I live in Greece and the poor man's copyright is mostly common here.

It is?

Hmm... I wonder which people tend to use it. I'm Greek (although living in the UK) and my research into Greek publishing so far has not indicated such a thing. There may be a misconception that poor man's copyright may do the trick (a misconception which us universal nonetheless, because it was often passed from peer to peer while I was in film school when I first came to the UK) but when I actually started looking seriously into publishing I realised it was a no-no.

I usually register my work with WAG while I'm writing, and it's a universal service. It's in Greek too, but presumably, judging from your name you're probably not writing in Greek anyway. I think it's worth asking a lawyer about what's the best way to go about it in Greece.

If I also find out I'll let you know.

shelley · Mar 28, 2011

I have a few friends that are into music and that's how I figured it was so common here, but I guess I didn't express it correctly ( a book is a whole different story ). In Greece, you used to be able to give it to the national library and they stamped a paper for you which indicated the date you gave it. That used to be enough but they stopped it since they had no more room (!!!!). A good friend of mine is a lawyer and when I asked her she said that a notary takes care of that. They ask for 4-5 euro a page, my novel is around 400 pages, so you see why it isn't worth it.
And you are right, i'm not writing in greek even though if I actually decided to pay for what they ask for, it wouldn't matter.
Since you're Greek, you must know how the system works here. We're way behind in many things, and unfortunately the fees are too high.

Thank you...

whimsical rabbit · Mar 28, 2011

shelley said:
In Greece, you used to be able to give it to the national library and they stamped a paper for you which indicated the date you gave it. That used to be enough but they stopped it since they had no more room (!!!!)

Yep. That sounds like something that would happen in Greece.

The National Library way was the only one I was aware of. Great. Now you have to sell your house to get your copyright.

Sigh...

blacbird · Mar 28, 2011

whimsical rabbit said:
The National Library way was the only one I was aware of. Great. Now you have to sell your house to get your copyright.

You hold the copyright to anything the moment you produce it in a tangible form (physical copy, audio recording, or computer file). This is true in the U.S., Canada, Australia and the EU, as far as I know. You can register the copyright with the relevant copyright office for a small fee; in the U.S. I believe it's $35.

Your house is worth no more than $35?

And, as has been pointed out by several here, unless you are self-publishing, there's virtually no reason to do this.

whimsical rabbit · Mar 28, 2011

blacbird said:
You hold the copyright to anything the moment you produce it in a tangible form (physical copy, audio recording, or computer file). This is true in the U.S., Canada, Australia and the EU, as far as I know. You can register the copyright with the relevant copyright office for a small fee; in the U.S. I believe it's $35.

Your house is worth no more than $35?

Hopefully it is. It was a figure of speech.

But I'd like to point you to Shelley's post below (bolding mine):

shelley said:
In Greece, you used to be able to give it to the national library and they stamped a paper for you which indicated the date you gave it. That used to be enough but they stopped it since they had no more room (!!!!). A good friend of mine is a lawyer and when I asked her she said that a notary takes care of that. They ask for 4-5 euro a page, my novel is around 400 pages, so you see why it isn't worth it.

The national library that Shelley is referring to is Greece's equivalent of the Library of Congress that you're referring to. So, as far as I understand it (mind you, I'm a UK resident) the only way to go about it is the notary one, which, as indicated above, can be very expensive.

That said, I'm under the impression-- and people do correct me if I'm wrong-- that you can register it with the Library of Congress elsewhere.

blacbird said:

And, as has been pointed out by several here, unless you are self-publishing, there's virtually no reason to do this.

Click to expand...

Indeed, but it's always useful to know when and where. Keeping track of changes such as the ones Shelley mentioned can certainly be useful to a writer.

That said, I'm all pro an a priori registration with a guild like WAG (which is not the same as copyright).

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