Starting a novel with dialogue

Rules are made to be broken. I've read novels that begin in dialogue. Others will probably disagree, but I say do it your way.

There is only one rule in writing: does it work?

If the answer is "yes," then very little else matters...

Of course, you have to interpret this advice. What "works?" Well, look at your favorite novels: most of them probably use conventions that most writers would be advised to avoid.

Most writers should avoid second person, but Jay McInerney's Bright Lights, Big City works even though it breaks this "rule." Why? That's the magic potion we're all trying to discover.

Maybe you should ask them specifically why you should avoid starting with dialogue. Perhaps their answers might clue you in to the real trouble they're having with your beginning. [size=-1]
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I don't find anything wrong with starting a novel with dialogue, as long as it works. Like you said, seven out of your ten started the book that way. I would never consider this a rule, nor have I even heard of it before.

However, I agree with Matt (emeraldcite) to ask your group why they disliked the dialogue at the beginning. Was it unclear who was speaking? Did they have trouble grasping the story based on the initial conversation? Did they need more context?

I have heard from some published authors that editors do feel that starting with dialog is weak. I haven't sent my novel to an editor yet, mainly because I haven't finished it, but some people do say that.

I have heard that it is a well known rule, but in writing, there are exceptions to every rule. So you can break it, but you just have to do it right.

My personal view is that it depends on 1) how long the first piece of dialog is 2) how much dialog between characters we hear before we get an image or an idea and 3) how interesting the dialog is.

As an example, a woman in a class I'm taking right now shared the first page of a novel she was writing. She began with about three sentences of dialog that were a big mouthful each. What came after it was a fascinating description of a dead body that immediately made me wonder what had happened.

I suggested she should start with that image and have the dialog come afterward. Regardless of how good that dialog was, I didn't really know what it was in reference to yet, and it seemed very abstract, while the description of the corpse was concrete. Also, if a lot of dialog is the first thing I read, I don't know anything about the character, their age, or if they are male or female. That means I can't imagine how their voice would sound, and that makes it more abstract than concrete. Something concrete is usually going to be a better hook than something abstract.

I think that if your opening dialog is relatively short, you give it context right away, and it's a line of dialog that makes people interested in the story, there's no reason why you can't use it.

the logic behind it is normally that, for the reader, its completely abstract.

setting is gone. we don't know who is talking to who, where the power is, who is our protagonist etc etc.

but therein lies the brilliance of starting with dialogue too. it depends what you start with. a conversation that allows the reader to almost immediately know the two voices can really work well.

just don't let it be something like this:

he did did he?

yeah he did

no, did he really

yeah, amazing i know

he couldn't

i'm telling you, he really really did

go for something which reveals the characters ASAP. eg - some insight into social phenomena most people don't think about could work well etc

Bright lights big city... every time I read about how second-person just isn't done I remember that story. And talk about a start:

"You're not the kind of guy who'd be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are..."

Had me saying 'please sir, I want some more.'

There's absolutely no such rules. As long as you do it well -- present interesting characters in interesting situations with interesting problems. Plenty of novels (classics even) start with dialogue. First person narration is basically dialogue...

If your writing group keeps saying you shouldn't start with dialogue, the problem might be something different. Perhaps you didn't go on and show your readers why they should care about the characters... or tell them where they are and why they're there... etc. When the readers feel disoriented because they read a page of opening dialogue and they have no idea who those people are...

As long as the content of the dialogue gives me a sense of who's talking about what and where etc., I see no problem opening with dialogue.

Dialogue

Like pretty much anything else, "Never open with dialogue" is simply a cautionary guideline. Opening with dialogue can be weak, and often is.

But it all depends on the dialogue. "Ender's Game" is certainly Orson Scott Card's most popular and famous story. It opens with "Whatever your gravity is when you get to the door, remember -- the enemy's gate is down. If you step through your own door like you're out for a stroll, you're a big target and you deserve to get hit. With more than a flasher."

Opening with dialogue can work well, but it must be the right dialogue that sets up the story.

It sounds like your writing group needs a rule against rules.

Time to leave your writing group. You've outgrown them.

"Why are they shooting at me?" - I'd be curious to see what the next line said.

"You want a divorce?" - I'd read the next line.

I guess it depends on the flow of the thought that follows.

Gulliver's Travels is a monologue. Go figure.

OK, a few questions for you.

First, how long is the dialogue in question? If it's just one or two lines of dialogue before we get some descriptive text, then ignore them. Nobody's going to stop reading that quickly, and that's what you're trying to avoid. If it goes on for long enough to start the next page[1] then look more carefully at it.

If it does, there are two questions: in the text on the first page, do we get enough information to start to form an idea about who the characters are? And do we get enough information to understand what kind of lives they have? (An extension of this: can we easily tell what genre your story is in?)

[1]: that's 12 lines, half of the 25 you'd normally have per page, because you need space for your title and contact info and for the editor to make notes

Personally if I open my story with dialogue, I wouldn't go for too long. Even if the dialogue is riveting, I still want to know what are talking and where they are. If you go half or a whole page with dialogue but no description, I'd get disoriented.

One of my chapters opens with dialogue (but it's not connected to the previous chapter) between two characters that have already been introduced. Still, my readers told me they got disoriented because they were not sure where these people were and why they were there. However, once I added a brief description in the first few lines, all became clear and my readers had no problem with it anymore.

sandoz said:

Bright lights big city... every time I read about how second-person just isn't done I remember that story. And talk about a start:

"You're not the kind of guy who'd be at a place like this at this time of the morning. But here you are..."

Had me saying 'please sir, I want some more.'

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And, conversely, made me gag and put the book down, more for the second-person POV than for the dialog. Which is exactly the point. Some writers (and readers) prefer certain approaches, some prefer others, and as has been pointed out, there is no "rule."

bird

Grey Malkin said:

Time to leave your writing group. You've outgrown them.

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I wouldn't necessarily say that. All people in a writing group are readers, which is what you need. If something doesn't make sense to people, it doesn't do you any good to just say, "you don't get it," and move on. You might as well just write for yourself.

Sometimes, people get a little caught up in pointing out when people "break rules," without an understanding of why they shouldn't. If there is something in writing that you're "not supposed to do," it's because when you do it, it usually becomes detrimental to the story. If you do it, and it works, then you can. The people in Rhade's writing group are entitled to their opinion. Rhade just needs to evaluate their reasoning.

I've never heard that rule before. I suggest not worrying about the rule per se. If they just said you can't do it--ignore that. If they said what about it they didn't like specifically--that you need to know.

"Eh bien, mon prince, so Genoa and Lucca are now no more than private estates of the Bonaparte family...."

"And--and--what comes next?"

I guess Tolstoy (War & Peace) and Thomas Mann (Buddenbrooks) didn't know that rule.

readers

Celia Cyanide said:

All people in a writing group are readers, which is what you need. .

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Why?

I was always taught not to start with dialogue, then when I started at the paper, I found out that sometimes, not only is it OK, but it works better.

So, if it works, forget the rules. I have read plenty of books that start with dialogue -- a sentence or two.

Jamesaritchie said:

Why?

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If you want to do something with your story, and not just keep it to yourself, (which some people do, and that's okay) you need readers. If readers don't think it works, they won't keep reading.

Celia, for information: Jamesaritchie is one of the seasoned professionals around here. At his stage, he doesn't need a group of test readers to tell him whether a story works. Some writers have a rare combination of abilities that enables them to do without a group even when they start out.

Readers

Celia Cyanide said:

If you want to do something with your story, and not just keep it to yourself, (which some people do, and that's okay) you need readers. If readers don't think it works, they won't keep reading.

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Editors and agents are readers, too. If they think it works, it usually works. But from my experience, "readers" in writing groups just confuse things, and generally haven't a clue.

reph said:

Celia, for information: Jamesaritchie is one of the seasoned professionals around here. At his stage, he doesn't need a group of test readers to tell him whether a story works.

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I know that. The person who started this thread has a writing group, however.