Questions about Historical Fiction with fantasy elements

Saltricks

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An idea popped in my head yesterday for my first novel. I am well versed in the time period and I think I can make vivid characters/ plot / setting with the help of a few fantasy elements. It's a very exciting time for me as I have been mulling over many ideas in my head for the last few months figuring out what I want to commit my time to. I believe this is it.

I want to get some feedback on the time period/ setting and if you've heard of something similar before. From my own research I didn't find anything, but maybe you have. I want to keep the subject discrete for now, so if you are interested in helping, shoot me a pm and I can give you a short 2 sentence summary of what I'm trying to go for. If I find out it's a more common/talked about time period, I'll just talk about it in the open, but for now hush hush :D.

Second, what are your opinions on minor fantasy elements in historical fiction (e.g. Song of Fire and Ice)? I think Martin's series has really influenced me, because I think my story is going to be structured very similarly (switching character perspective) and including some supernatural elements. In the same vein as Martin, I think I'm going to create a land similar to what we have here on earth, but slightly different which allows me some freedom from dates, names, and events.

Essentially, I want to tell the story of a time period, but with different names, landmarks, cultures etc, as well as some minor magical elements. Basically following the Sword of Fire and Ice formula to a T. I'm just wondering if this is popular in the historical fiction/fantasy market, if its overplayed etc.

I know I should just write the story and deal with that stuff later, but it's just some info thats been really nagging at me lately. Any help you can provide would be very much appreciated.

Edit:

Ok, what I'm doing is a retelling of world history around 340-250 BC. This is the time of Alexander the Great. What many westerners don't know is that at the same time, China was in this long period of civil war. At this point in history, China was probably the most advanced civilization in the world. They had iron weapons, armies of 600 thousand or more, repeating crossbows, advanced bureaucracy/legal system (conscription, census, taxation), and some of the greatest generals ever known (Sun Tzu is a biggie).

I'm writing about what would have happened if Alexander, rather than dying in India from a wound dealt by what was probably a commoner, had survived and conquered Europe and set his eyes east to sea, and the vast empire of China. I think the story as its coming along is really playing off of the tensions between East and West, and one of my goals is to highlight the benefits of both schools of thought (the aggressive head on tactics of Alexander and the cunning, patient tactics of China really exemplify their different cultures).

So, now that it's out there...have you heard of any similar novels, stories, etc? Anything from that time period that I should take a look at? The fantasy would come into play because as I see it, Alexander needs something to even the score because a battle against 1 to 6 numbered, technologically and geographically advantaged, and at best equally accomplished generals is a fight that even Alexander would lose.
 
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Tepelus

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Sounds like you and I have a little something in common. My WIP is a historical fantasy, more emphasis on the historical with some fantasy elements thrown in. I've read the same series and it too has been an inspiration to me, but I'm not following Martin's formula. I think, though, in my opinion, you want to make your book not come out as some knockoff of Martin's, not saying you can't do the alternating POV's for each chapter like he's done, I'm sure it has been done numerous times before. You just want to make it your own, have your own voice. I would just write the story, and have fun doing it. There are definitely readers out there that enjoy these kind of novels, I being one of them. :)
 

Ineti

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It's nothing new. Plenty of writers have done something similar. Right off the top of my head, I can think of Katherine Kurtz and her Deryni series. Basically a Middle Ages England analogue, plus psionics/ritual magic. Write the story, have fun with it. Good luck!
 

jmarkbyrnes

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I'm not really sure what you're looking for here since you're keeping it all so hush hush :rolleyes:; but, Glen Cook's Instrumentalities of the Night series might be something you'd want to look into. Here's how Cook describes the series, "The setting of the series is a sort of alternate 13th century Europe shaped by counterfactual geography and the presence of ambient magical energy that makes possible the existence of all gods and devils."

-papaholmz
 

Rain Gnome

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I'm kind of worried that my historical WIP might be considered lame because it has at least one ghostly/undead enemy in it. But I figure that if people actually believed the supernatural world to be real, then why can't it really happen in the novel. Fear and belief in the supernatural blatantly affected and altered many events in history, in ways our culture doesn't really understand anymore. Maybe it's impossible to approach or recreate the truth without intermixing some of that fantasy back into the story.
 

BAY

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Saltricks said, "Following the Sword of Fire/ Ice to a T.


Martin kills off every character a reader loves plus makes them miserable before he offs them--my son refuses to stick with his books because of it. Consider letting one fav live.
 

Saltricks

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Ok, what I'm doing is a retelling of world history around 340-250 BC. This is the time of Alexander the Great. What many westerners don't know is that at the same time, China was in this long period of civil war. At this point in history, China was probably the most advanced civilization in the world. They had iron weapons, armies of 600 thousand or more, repeating crossbows, advanced bureaucracy/legal system (conscription, census, taxation), and some of the greatest generals ever known (Sun Tzu is a biggie).

I'm writing about what would have happened if Alexander, rather than dying in India from a wound dealt by what was probably a commoner, had survived and conquered Europe and set his eyes east to sea, and the vast empire of China. I think the story as its coming along is really playing off of the tensions between East and West, and one of my goals is to highlight the benefits of both schools of thought (the aggressive head on tactics of Alexander and the cunning, patient tactics of China really exemplify their different cultures).

So, now that it's out there...have you heard of any similar novels, stories, etc? Anything from that time period that I should take a look at? The fantasy would come into play because as I see it, Alexander needs something to even the score because a battle against 1 to 6 numbered, technologically and geographically advantaged, and at best equally accomplished generals is a fight that even Alexander would lose.
 
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Stunted

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I'm writing historical fantasy too! I haven't read any of the authors you guys are talking about. I better check them out.
 

Rain Gnome

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Just wondering, where are you getting your sources that the Chinese had multiple armies of 600,000 people in 300 BC. Maybe the complete army when amassed together would approach this number, but it would seem improbable that they were fielding these massive armies against one another.
For instance, here it suggests that the population of the earth was 200 million in 1 AD. Wikipedia actually gives several sources for population at 1 AD, from 150-300 million. This site says 150 million. These maps show the proportion of population in each region at 1 AD. Those maps suggest that China alone had a population of about 50-60 million in 1 AD, which seems unlikely to support the idea that they they could sustain such massive armies in 300 BC. This was in a pre-industrial society, so imagine how many people it would require to support an army of 600,000 people. It's not unlike how Herodotus claims that over 2 million Persians attacked the Greeks by land (with another 500,000 by sea!) Ancient, Western sources liked to exaggerate numbers because nobody could comprehend the numbers anyways, and the exact number wasn't even really that important to them.

I don't know many Chinese sources from that era, but if you're interested in the research, check out Anabasis by the Greek historian Xenophon, it’s a true account of a company of Greek Hoplites getting lost in Persia and having to fight and search for their way back to Greece. Also, the Anabasis of Alexander the Great by the Roman historian Arrian is one of the only extant sources for specific information about Alexander’s expedition into Persia.

Alexander never actually died in India, the men turned back because they had gone too far and were sick of fighting and were too far away from home. Personally, I don’t see the Chinese having any real success against the Greek phalanx. The only other unit that could beat it was a rival Greek phalanx. A source like Thucydides shows the effectiveness of the Greek phalanx in his observations of the Peloponnesian War. In their wars, the Ancient Greek phalanx never really lost a land-battle except against another trained Greek phalanx. But the Greeks would also have no way of reinforcing themselves and couldn’t keep a progressive war going on in China. It would be interesting to see that clash of cultures going on, and the intrusion of the Greeks into that civil war, and how they would react to advanced weaponry. And if it's fantasy, I guess you could make up whatever population you wanted to for China.
 

Saltricks

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"where are you getting your sources that the Chinese had multiple armies of 600,000 people in 300 BC"

Like in any ancient text, as you mentioned, there is definitely exaggeration. But if you look at the Records of the Grand Historian you can read the biography of Bai Qi who fought in the battle of Chanping where he slaughtered 400,000 soldiers and fielded an army of 500,000 himself. Although, like you said, western historians used large numbers that no one really understood, the Chinese had a very developed bureaucratic system that allowed for census and taxes. This at the least suggests more historical accuracy than the hyperbole seen in Plutarch and Herodotus.

But I'll admit the numbers do look a bit super crazy. At first I thought that I would have to infuse magic to give Alexander an edge, but I realized that Chandragupta Mayur would have been alive exactly at the same time, and he fielded an army of maybe 350 thousand indians, along with maybe 6000 war elephants. This along with Alexander's army would create a sizeable force that would offer a threat to China. It's really a very exciting time for me :)

I mispoke about Alexander, I know he died in Persia, but he received a wound in India that many believe led to his death (thereby me saying that he "died by a commoner").

Re: The phalanx. That's where some of this east vs. west culture thing really shines. The phalanx is like this glimmering beacon of that "western" bravado that really makes me want to tell this story. The phalanx is this impenetrable wall of death, like a moving meat grinder, right? They line up, then basically mow their enemies down. The hardier and more disciplined the men, the more effective it was. But it was nowhere near invincible. The phalanx lacked lateral mobility and was very very weak at the sides. This was exploited by Alexander himself who would equip his soldiers with longer sarissas to keep the opposing army at length then he would just rush his cavalry in from the sides and flank them to death.

Interestingly enough, I see Alexander's defeat of the phalanx as a very "eastern" way of thinking--"lateral thinking", quite literally. Sun Tzu would be alive at this time (maybe they should meet!) and the difference in military strategy would be like night and day. The Greeks never encountered Chinese military strategy which utilized tactics such as starvation, tactical retreat, guerilla warfare, espionage, and even chemical warfare.

The chukonu was also a major major advantage when it comes to the Chinese armies. The chukonu was this crossbow that was very easy to operate and was able to shoot maybe 10 bolts a minute or so. It was so easy to use that even a peasant could use. Combine that with conscription and you have the sky turning black with arrows. The campaign into India by Alexander would exemplify the difficulty of even Alexander to deal with these "dishonorable" tactics. This is why I really want to write this story...it has all these great themes: the power of assimilation, honor vs cunning, aggressiveness vs. patience...and that's just at the macro level.

Honestly, I think a lot of the potential in this story is the characters, rather than the big sprawling lord of the rings style battles. The potential for fleshing out legends such as Alexander, Chandragupta, Bai Qi, Sun Tzu and the possibility for them to interact is just...it's exciting.
 

Anne Lyle

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Second, what are your opinions on minor fantasy elements in historical fiction (e.g. Song of Fire and Ice)? I think Martin's series has really influenced me, because I think my story is going to be structured very similarly (switching character perspective) and including some supernatural elements. In the same vein as Martin, I think I'm going to create a land similar to what we have here on earth, but slightly different which allows me some freedom from dates, names, and events.

I love it - my own book is alternate history (set in Elizabethan England), with a side-order of non-humans and magic :)

In fact I prefer it when there isn't too much fantasy. I enjoyed A Game of Thrones, but I'm worried that there'll be too many dragons and not enough politics in the later books!

OTOH, I wouldn't call ASOIAF "historical fiction" - historical epic fantasy, maybe. But there's plenty of it about. If you need a list of authors (not necessarily the OP):

* Guy Gavriel Kay
* Lynn Flewelling
* Tim Powers
* Juliet E McKenna
* Mark Chadbourn (The Sword of Albion)
* Scott Lynch
* Kim Stanley Robinson (The Years of Rice and Salt)
* Naomi Novik
* Marie Brennan
* Freda Warrington (The Court of the Midnight King)
* Lois McMaster Bujold (The Curse of Chalion)

All mix varying amounts of history (real-world or secondary world), politics and fantasy, to great effect!
 

timewaster

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I write for children /YA and I've done three historical fantasies in a series and a standalone/first part in what could be a new series which should be out this summer.
I think the key thing to decide is how much the magical elements would have altered the society. In societies which believed in magic then this is a lot easier as the effect is already present. Both historical and Fantasy writing require good world building and immersive techniques so they fit well together.
 

pdr

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I interviewed Lois McMaster Bujold some years ago when 'The Curse of Chalion' was first published. She was clear that although she owed the world building research to a Spanish history course her book was a fantasy. Certainly I know all the Chalion books and they are not set in Spain. To be alternative history they would have to be grounded firmly both geographically and in known Spanish history.
 

Eddyz Aquila

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The Secret War by M.F.W. Curran is a good historical with fantasy elements in it. He managed to achieve a balance which I liked, and I'm a fanatic for historical accuracy.
As long as you achieve a balance between history and fantasy, all will be good.
 

Anne Lyle

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I interviewed Lois McMaster Bujold some years ago when 'The Curse of Chalion' was first published. She was clear that although she owed the world building research to a Spanish history course her book was a fantasy. Certainly I know all the Chalion books and they are not set in Spain. To be alternative history they would have to be grounded firmly both geographically and in known Spanish history.

Absolutely! I've read the book and love it, but it's very definitely secondary-world fantasy, as is most of Guy Gavriel Kay's work - but they draw on real-world history more heavily than most fantasy. I included a mix of historical and quasi-historical fantasy in my list, precisely because someone had already brought up GRRM. FWIW, in ISOIAF, the politics of Robert's court draws rather obviously on that of Edward IV (Lannisters = Woodvilles).

A lot of so-called "alternate history fantasy" is not alternate history in the SF sense, because the broad sweep of history is unaltered but fantasy elements are interpolated, and the fun comes from the mix of real events and the fantastic. Examples included Naomi Novik (Napoleonic wars), Mark Chadbourn (Spanish Armada), Marie Brennan (Great Fire of London) and Tim Powers (1582 Siege of Vienna).

The OP's scenario, OTOH, is actual alternate history, which is much rarer in fantasy. Warrington's "The Court of the Midnight King" springs to mind, but I can't think of any others offhand, at least not that I've read.

I include my own WiP in this final category, since Queen Elizabeth I has married and had sons, and there have been other historical changes owing to the presence of non-humans. Playing with history and its consequences is so much fun! :)
 

lkp

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I enjoy good historical fiction with fantasy elements, but it doesn't sound to me like that's what you're writing. What you're writing is ordinary fantasy. Martin's series is likewise fantasy, not historical fiction with fantasy elements. It's not historical fiction any more than (most) steampunk is.

Historical fiction has to connect somehow to actual history. It can play with it and modify it, but it has to connect to the "real world" somehow.

So Guy Gavriel Kay's Tigrana is fantasy, even though it was inspired by Renaissance Italy. His Ysabel was historical fiction with fantasy elements.
 

Anne Lyle

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Martin's series is likewise fantasy, not historical fiction with fantasy elements. It's not historical fiction any more than (most) steampunk is.

GRRM is a good deal less "historical" than most steampunk - the former draws on tropes from historical fiction but, like LotR, is set in a totally imagined world, whereas most (?) steampunk is set in a parallel version of our reality where, e.g. Queen Victoria is on the throne of Great Britain (or some version thereof) but science and technology are very different.
 

Saltricks

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I think a big decision for me right now is whether or not to keep the real names and places or create my own alternate world not too different from our own (GRRM's Westeros is basically England'ish). I'm leaning towards keeping the real names/places, but there are some really kinda "out there things" I want to include such as : The Tower of Babel, Shangrila/Simbala, perhaps some legends that may or may not be factual. What I'm scared of is the fantasy elements weakening the suspension of disbelief. I want the reader to feel that this could have happened if different decisions were made, but at the same time I'm thinking "since we're in the realm of what if's, why not jazz it up with some supernatural goodies?". Any thoughts?
 

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I think there's a discussion on this elsewhere on AW... novels, maybe? Whether magical realism/ fantasy injected into reality is overdone or too wink-at-the-reader...
Some of my favourite books do this- I would say try it and see if you like it. My personal philosophy is not to let reality get in the way of a rippin' tale... but I don't know how that sort of talk will fly on a historical writing board ;)
 

timewaster

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I think it depends on whether you see yourself as writing history with a fantasy twist or fantasy inspired by some real world histories. I've done both but I wonder really call the latter kind historical. Most fantasy writers use real civilisations as a model and adapt and change them but that doesn't really justify the historical title.
I research my historical fantasies as if they were going to be histories and then treat some of the possible beliefs of the time as if they were real.
 

FictionChick

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My first novel is a historical fiction w/ touches of fantasy. It's my favorite thing to write, and I personally think there's a HUGE potential market for it. Right now, the market is very fantasy / sci-fi, and I think historical fiction has a huge place there - so much of real history can be enhanced with magic!
 

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If you're having different names, cultures, landmarks, etc., (if China isn't called China), then I'd say you're doing plain old fantasy, which is how I would classify Song of Ice and Fire also. The risk you might run into is that if your Greeks are too obviously Greek and your Chinese are too obviously Chinese, people might wonder why you didn't just set the story in Greece and China.

If you *are* setting it in Greece and China, then I'd say you're heading into alternate history or maybe historical fantasy, if there's magic in it. One awesome series along the lines of historical fantasy right now is the Temeraire series by Naomi Novik. It's basically Master and Commander plus dragons. IMO, a great example of a very definite historical setting with a great fantasy twist. (Plenty of East/West tension in it, too.)

One great character study of Alexander the Great is Mary Renault's Fire from Heaven. (It's a novel, not non-fiction.)
 

Stray Cat

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We give titles to our comments?

"I think there's a discussion on this elsewhere on AW... novels, maybe? Whether magical realism/ fantasy injected into reality is overdone or too wink-at-the-reader..."

Hi. I'm new. Does anybody know the best way to find the thread Nen was talking about?
 

Saltricks

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So, i've jumped feet first into getting this thing fleshed out, and its looking like it will be Greece and China. The characters are essentially legends anyway, the historical sources being limited to one or two accounts. This means I have a lot of freedom with personality, and I can take some artistic liberties with the specifics. I tried to see if the story works without fantasy...but the plot is just speaking to me. Trying not to fall into the soap opera twists (evil wizards, twins, clones) but I'm writing some pretty "out there" elements. I'm just going to take everyones advice and just get the story down, ask questions later. :D