Will English Die?

gothicangel · Oct 31, 2010

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/oct/31/nicholas-ostler-my-bright-idea

Personally, I don't believe it will. He seems to be avoiding the issues of cultural identity relating to English [just look at French]. I think the biggest threat is trying to freeze it in a moment of time and restrict it's growth.

I find the Latin argument deeply flawed. The true reason for the demise of Latin was The Reformation, when it became 'too Catholic.' The rise of vernacular English was the desire for a language that was seen as more 'English' [pre-standardization of course, then Caxton changed everything

.] Latin of course lives on in English and its grammar.

gothicangel · Oct 31, 2010

Exactly.

whimsical rabbit · Oct 31, 2010

The analogy with Persian is a wrong one.

The Persian empire extended to certain limits, in an era when the "known" world was constituted by a handful of countries. There were limits to what imperialism could touch. Whether English has military power or whatever is not really related to the language dying. Costa Rica may not have military power but their language is Spanish and it's spoken far and wide in the globe-- exactly as English is. If we are to pick the languages we learn with the criterion of who's in power, we might as well start learning Chinese, or make our children learn it (although I can very well see that happening in the future).

Language does not really die-- with a few exceptions. It evolves. For example, ancient Greek has evolved to modern Greek. There may be notable differences in syntax, grammar and vocabulary, but it's still the same language, clearly. Time can influence the transformations of a language, but in today's world as we know it, unless all English-speaking populations, as well as those who speak English as a second or third or whatever language are wiped out, there's no reasonable explanation as to under which circumstances the language can die.

Jamesaritchie · Oct 31, 2010

I believe Nicholas Ostler subscribes to the usual ivory tower philosophy. When you have nothing worth saying, write a book about it.

Kate Thornton · Oct 31, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
I believe Nicholas Ostler subscribes to the usual ivory tower philosophy. When you have nothing worth saying, write a book about it.

qft.

languages evolve. even if they evolve dramatically, it is not the same as death.

DancingMaenid · Oct 31, 2010

whimsical rabbit said:
Language does not really die-- with a few exceptions. It evolves. For example, ancient Greek has evolved to modern Greek. There may be notable differences in syntax, grammar and vocabulary, but it's still the same language, clearly. Time can influence the transformations of a language, but in today's world as we know it, unless all English-speaking populations, as well as those who speak English as a second or third or whatever language are wiped out, there's no reasonable explanation as to under which circumstances the language can die.

Yep. I'm sure there will come a time when English is a very difficult language from what we speak, read, and write today, but I don't think it's likely to be a sudden change.

Margarita Skies · Oct 31, 2010

I will die before English does. :ROFL:

quicklime · Oct 31, 2010

At this point English is the official language of science. The sole superpower of the world speaks it (note Latin died LONG after the Romans did).

Between the 2, I hardly see it dying, at least in the next couple dozen generations

joyce · Oct 31, 2010

Magali said:
I will die before English does.

This. I'm too darn old to start learning another language other than how to ask for a beer.

Maxinquaye · Oct 31, 2010

Yes. One day English will be dead. But not for a while, I suspect.

gothicangel · Nov 1, 2010

Maxinquaye said:
Yes. One day English will be dead. But not for a while, I suspect.

I disagree.

Just as quicklime has pointed out, it is the language of science. It will evolve, but die out? No.

Mr Flibble · Nov 1, 2010

If it evolves enough though, it won't be called English any more? See Old English, Middle English etc, OMG THEY ARE DEAD TOO!!!!

I can't see people 300 years from now caring what we think about it either

I'm kind of shrugging tbh. Because if I'm going to be dead, why do I care? As long as people in the future understand each other, does it matter what they call their language?

gothicangel · Nov 1, 2010

IdiotsRUs said:
I'm kind of shrugging tbh. Because if I'm going to be dead, why do I care? As long as people in the future understand each other, does it matter what they call their language?

It will always matter because a national language goes hand in hand with a national identity. Governments spend millions trying to save dying languages. Irish Gaelic has an EU protection order. Only this morning on the Scottish news there was an item saying there has to be 800 new Gaelic speakers per year to save the language.

As for Old and Middle English, they didn't die out, they evolved. How else could I read the 15th century Kingis Quair and understand it without being fluent in 15th century English?

Mr Flibble · Nov 1, 2010

gothicangel said:
As for Old and Middle English, they didn't die out, they evolved. How else could I read the 15th century Kingis Quair and understand it without being fluent in 15th century English?

That's my point - they have evolved and now you need to learn the old versions - apart from what we call English - to understand them. They've died out in the sense that no community speaks to each other in that language. (Well, maybe language geeks lol) What we call our language doesn't really matter, as long as we can communicate, and the language will evolve so that those in the future will need to study to understand what the heck we're writing about. So English as we know it may die out as a spoken thing. I suspect English as a 'what we call our language' will carry on. But it won't be what we know it as. C'est la vie. It will be as it's always been - the language will evolve, older ways of saying things will die away, new ones will take their place then BANG! Read an old book and What the heck does that mean? .

Ken · Nov 1, 2010

... it might. There are no guarantees. Sure it may just be changing as it has in the past. But then again it may be fading. Only time will tell. If it is on its way out I just hope it lasts till I get a blasted book on the shelves.

Priene · Nov 1, 2010

It depends what you mean by die. Accumulated language change will ensure that one day our version of English will be incomprehensible to future speakers of the language. What's interesting is whether it will split into several languages.

KTC · Nov 1, 2010

whimsical rabbit · Nov 1, 2010

Priene said:
It depends what you mean by die. Accumulated language change will ensure that one day our version of English will be incomprehensible to future speakers of the language. What's interesting is whether it will split into several languages.

This.

And allow me to say that Greek is also fundamental to the phraseology of science, natural and social.

That's because the foundations of such sciences were laid two thousand years ago in ancient Greece (for the western world, because the Arabs did some awesome stuff too). Greek terminology dominates science in the modern world. Similarly, one of the revolutionary inventions of our times is the internet. Therefore, English terminology is used in the field. Perhaps in a few hundred years another language will take over. But the English terminology will remain, just as Greek did, even though Greece has stopped producing science at the moment and is focusing on corruption.

Phaeal · Nov 1, 2010

Not until Great Cthulhu rises and wipes out the human insects. Then we'll all speak R'ylehian.

If Not-So-Great (Dude) Cthulhu rises, however, he'll just grab a sandwich and six-pack, watch The Big Lebowski, then go back to sleep. Dude Cthulhu abides.

KTC · Nov 1, 2010

Phaeal said:
Not until Great Cthulhu rises and wipes out the human insects. Then we'll all speak R'ylehian.

If Not-So-Great (Dude) Cthulhu rises, however, he'll just grab a sandwich and six-pack, watch The Big Lebowski, then go back to sleep. Dude Cthulhu abides.

What would the fat lady think!?

Ol' Fashioned Girl · Nov 1, 2010

After listening to modern music and a group of teenagers, she would think English is already dead.

Priene · Nov 1, 2010

Ol' Fashioned Girl said:
After listening to modern music and a group of teenagers, she would think English is already dead.

You is like well nang innit.

thothguard51 · Nov 1, 2010

For the English language, I think the rules of grammar evolve more than the actual language does. Look at a book written 100 years ago and see how grammar usage and punctuation have evolved. Evolved, not changed.

As far as spoken English, there is also the fact that English is the international language of pilots and flight controllers, along with science as has been mentioned.

Die out, not in my life time. Evolve, yes.

ANinfinity · Nov 1, 2010

Who would have ever thought Latin would go extinct?\

No, like all other languages before it, English will evolve. The majority of present day languages wouldn't exist without Latin, the most spoken language of many years ago.

I think English has that title now. One day, English as we know it may be no more. Hard to say.

ANinfinity · Nov 1, 2010

thothguard51 said:
For the English language, I think the rules of grammar evolve more than the actual language does. Look at a book written 100 years ago and see how grammar usage and punctuation have evolved. Evolved, not changed.

As far as spoken English, there is also the fact that English is the international language of pilots and flight controllers, along with science as has been mentioned.

Die out, not in my life time. Evolve, yes.

Also, point of contention, Latin is indeed the international language of science. Not English. It was purposely chosen as the international language of science because so many languages evolved from it, it is essentially a dead language, and it overall just worked for binomial nomenclature. this way, with Latin, any animal and many processes can be immediately identified by their Latin name rather than translating it from one language to another. That's not to say that opinions will differ but Latin makes science international, so that it needn't be translated from one to another. But as with so many things, the verdict could come down to semantics and what parts of science one refers to.

(Organismal Biology Major)

Will English Die?

Toughen up.

Toughen up.

Bunned

Still Happy to be Here. Or Anywhere

New kid...seven years ago!

all out of fucks to give

I'm really shy...

That cheeky buggerer

Toughen up.

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Toughen up.

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Out to lunch

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Bunned

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Stand in the Place Where You Live

Hand? What hand?

Out to lunch

A Gentleman of a refined age...

I'm plenty of fish in the sea

I'm plenty of fish in the sea