UK: book swapping

aruna · Aug 1, 2010

Yesterday I signed up for a site called readitswapit; I placed seven books I no longer need on my swap list, and already, half a day later, four of them have "gone". I was able to swap them for books I've always thought I might read but haven't bought yet, and all I need to pay is the postage.

I'm quite astonished at how quickly these books have gone, though I see I've made abig mistake; I originally wanted to sell my old books because I'm moving out soon and want to clear out a lot of stuff... now I'm only getting stuff replaced!

I'm not worried about cheating authors out of a sale, since I buy enough new books. It's always good for authors to have books in circulation instead of sitting on bookshelves, unread by new people.

Terie · Aug 1, 2010

Oh! I've heard of a similar programme in the US. It's nice to discover there's one here, too. Thanks!

stephenf · Aug 1, 2010

I think it's a great ideas for the consumer.But, from the book producing side it is, another nail in the coffin of paper books.

Terie · Aug 1, 2010

stephenf said:
I think it's a great ideas for the consumer.But, from the book producing side it is, another nail in the coffin of paper books.

Not really. No more than used bookshops and libraries have been.

aruna · Aug 1, 2010

I don't agree; these are books that were just sitting around doing nothing. The books I have ordered were on people's swap lists, and I would not probably not have bought them anyway, but now I might by other books by those authors. Three of my to be swapped books are ones I bought myself in the last five months, and I will continue buying new books. It's no worse than a used book shop.

What I think is pretty bad, is the number of used books on amazon; so that when people go to buy a new book they are tempted into buying a used one instead.

stephenf · Aug 1, 2010

Terie said:
Not really. No more than used bookshops and libraries have been.

Book shops are fast becoming a thing of the past and my library is full of computers and a small number of out-of-date books.

Terie · Aug 1, 2010

stephenf said:
Book shops are fast becoming a thing of the past and my library is full of computers and a small number of out-of-date books.

I think you're missing my point. Used bookshops haven't been a problem in the past, and all online bookswapping is doing is performing the same function...and very likely the disappearance of used bookshops is driving the need for online bookswapping.

stephenf · Aug 1, 2010

aruna said:
What I think is pretty bad, is the number of used books on amazon; so that when people go to buy a new book they are tempted into buying a used one instead.

We are all consumers and no one can stop change.But writers are also part of the book retail sector.Swopitreadit is linked to Amazon.Amazon would love to see paper books disappear.Personaly, I don't think the wait will be too long.

stephenf · Aug 1, 2010

Terie said:
. Used bookshops haven't been a problem in the past,
QUOTE]
You're right, bookshops have not been a problem .But it has become unprofitable to own a book shop.If there is no money in selling books ,do you believe writers will be unaffected?

Terie · Aug 1, 2010

stephenf said:
You're right, bookshops have not been a problem .But it has become unprofitable to own a book shop.If there is no money in selling books ,do you believe writers will be unaffected?

Look, I'm a published author who once was poor and relied on libraries and used bookshops to supply my reading. It would be poor form for me to be in favour of anything that prevents people from getting their hands legally on reading material when they can't afford it.

I have absolutely NO problem with my books being in libraries (and since my publisher is a US publisher and my books are mostly in US libraries, PLR doesn't really come into the picture here), being sold in used bookshops, or being traded in online swaps.

It is in authors' best interests to be READ. Being READ is what creates demand. Many people discover new-to-them authors by getting books from libraries or secondhand, and then go on to buy the author's other books from retail outlets.

What I see is the publishing world changing, and there's not one fricking thing I can personally do about it other than write the best books I can. I certainly WILL NOT advocate against anything (other than theft and piracy) that puts reading material in front of the people who want it. You can do so, but I think you'll find yourself in a tiny minority amongst both readers and authors.

Shakesbear · Aug 1, 2010

One aspect of book selling in the UK is the number of books sold by charity shops at knock down prices. My local second hand book shop is very canny about what he will buy as there are so many charity shops in town who undercut him. I won't buy books from a charity shop. I'd rather order the books I need from the bookshop in town.

stephenf · Aug 1, 2010

Terie said:
Look, I'm a published author
.

Well done, and I wish you every success in the future. You have converted me. Let book shops and their owners go to hell ,we don't need them.

Terie · Aug 1, 2010

stephenf said:
Well done, and I wish you every success in the future. You have converted me. Let book shops and there owners go to hell ,we don't need them.

Nicely done. I'm impressed with your convincing rhetoric. Spelling and punctuation, too.

Oh, and BTW, now that I'm not poor, I spend a couple thousand pounds a year a bookshops. So I don't need any lectures from you or anyone else about spending money on books. If I occasionally choose to buy something secondhand (or sometimes am forced to because a book is out of print), that's my business. Where you spend your money is your business. Notice that I didn't say you shouldn't buy all your books retail; I resent your insistence that everyone else must.

Kensington · Aug 1, 2010

stephenf said:
Book shops are fast becoming a thing of the past and my library is full of computers and a small number of out-of-date books.

Yes, and yes.

Adam · Aug 1, 2010

Ooh, that site looks funky. Will have to have a nosey later.

aruna · Aug 1, 2010

Hmmm. Since I first posted I've had four more book requests, but all four are for the same book, and I don't like the books they are offering to swap.

stephenf · Aug 1, 2010

Terie said:
Notice that I didn't say you shouldn't buy all your books retail; I resent your insistence that everyone else must.

I have no argument with you.I have no idea were the book trade is going.

All the best
SF

jvc · Aug 1, 2010

Guys, keep it civil and nice.

A few years back I bought a book in a charity shop. It cost me 50pence. Yeah, I'm bad, taking money from authors etc etc. However. I had not heard of the author before and I thought I'd give it a go. I liked the book and have since bought (in a proper book shop and new and at full retail price) five more of his books.

CheshireCat · Aug 1, 2010

Probably no surprise I'm commenting on this one.

Terie said:
I think you're missing my point. Used bookshops haven't been a problem in the past, and all online bookswapping is doing is performing the same function...and very likely the disappearance of used bookshops is driving the need for online bookswapping.

I don't want to get the same old argument going, but used bookstores have been a problem in the past. In the more than twenty years I've been in the business, I've seen more authors than I want to remember go down the tubes -- while their careers "flourished" in used bookstores.

(Readers being what they are, convinced we all know each other, I average a couple of notes a month from a reader saying some version of: "Whatever happened to such-and-such author? I just bought one of her books for pennies on Amazon, and I love her!" And I answer with some version of: "She's not writing anymore and hasn't for years. Couldn't make a living at it and her publisher dropped her. In part because you can buy her books for pennies on Amazon." Some get it. Most don't.)

The fact that this practice of selling used books has now gone viral via the internet should scare any author who wants to make a living at this. It's right up there with piracy in costing US money. I've heard ALL the arguments about how it doesn't really matter and that people who buy used wouldn't have bought new and all the other stuff, but you will never convince me that both publishers and authors haven't lost millions over the years because our work is not and was not protected by the simple definition of a book as intellectual property rather than real property.

The book is valued as a thing; the creative expression between the covers is not granted an intrinsic value.

So, yes, reselling a "book" is legal, and nobody's saying it isn't. I'm saying it shouldn't be and that it's one reason (of many) that publishers are stumbling and falling all around us.

My publisher knows damned well that my "reading audience" is considerably larger than the sales numbers they see, maybe even two or three times those numbers. But neither they nor I can prove it because the used book sales, via the internet or through stores, don't get reported. To anyone.

Which doesn't help me a whole lot when it's time to negotiate a new contract. And doesn't increase my print runs. At all. Which makes it harder to grow my readership -- except that it's undoubtedly growing in the used book trade, because times are hard and people are looking for bargains.

Don't blame them. But they aren't helping me and they aren't helping you -- and they aren't helping either bookstores or publishing, neither of which I want to see vanish in my lifetime.

Would I buy an out-of-print book used? Sure. Would I buy an in-print book used? No. I want that author and that publisher to see the number representing me in the author's reading audience.

Every individual has to make that choice. But writers, especially, need to think carefully about what it means. Especially if they want to be in this business for the long haul.

stephenf said:
We are all consumers and no one can stop change.But writers are also part of the book retail sector.Swopitreadit is linked to Amazon.Amazon would love to see paper books disappear.Personaly, I don't think the wait will be too long.

Nobody knows -- yet -- how large the shift to ebooks will be, or when it will happen, or what will happen to paper books. Amazon doesn't care, because they hardly handle paper books anymore; they're the first to admit that the vast majority of their bookselling profit comes from the sale of used books -- which they don't have to store or ship or even touch.

As a writer, Amazon is not your friend.

stephenf said:
Terie said:

. Used bookshops haven't been a problem in the past,
QUOTE]
You're right, bookshops have not been a problem .But it has become unprofitable to own a book shop.If there is no money in selling books ,do you believe writers will be unaffected?

Click to expand...

This. Bookstores are going under. Even the big chains in the US are closing many of their stores, and orders are down almost across the board. Which means any new writers coming into the game now are not going to get a lot of exposure, as a rule, because bookstores aren't going to stock many things except the guaranteed bestsellers. (Many of you have complained about that very thing here on these boards.)

Yes, there are ebooks. And there you'll be, in a huge forest of ebooks, with nothing making you stand out. You might make a larger royalty on a sale -- but the sales themselves aten't likely to equal the numbers a publisher with national distribution and a sales force could get for you.

Terie said:

Look, I'm a published author who once was poor and relied on libraries and used bookshops to supply my reading. It would be poor form for me to be in favour of anything that prevents people from getting their hands legally on reading material when they can't afford it.

I have absolutely NO problem with my books being in libraries (and since my publisher is a US publisher and my books are mostly in US libraries, PLR doesn't really come into the picture here), being sold in used bookshops, or being traded in online swaps.

It is in authors' best interests to be READ. Being READ is what creates demand. Many people discover new-to-them authors by getting books from libraries or secondhand, and then go on to buy the author's other books from retail outlets.

What I see is the publishing world changing, and there's not one fricking thing I can personally do about it other than write the best books I can. I certainly WILL NOT advocate against anything (other than theft and piracy) that puts reading material in front of the people who want it. You can do so, but I think you'll find yourself in a tiny minority amongst both readers and authors.

Click to expand...

I've always supported libraries because they are not in the business of making a profit off the sale of my books. Period. Used bookstores, especially those operating in huge numbers via the internet, ARE in the business of making a profit. Some, like Amazon, are giant corporations with stockholders and CEOs and all the other trappings of a company geared toward making money.

Off the sale of my books. For which they do not pay me a penny.

As I said, every author has to make the decision of whether or not to support used sales on their own. I don't judge anybody for making a choice I wouldn't make. I just want to make sure it's an informed choice, that writers aren't buying into the "it doesn't matter" bullshit. Because that's what it is.

It matters. Now, with the enormous reach of the internet, it matters more than it ever has. Your rights as an author, as a creator of intellectual property, are being eroded because "information" is being confused with "intellectual property."

Information is and should be free to all.

Intellectual property belongs to its creator, and its creator is entitled to compensation.

At the very least, we should have numbers reported to us. So that when it comes time to negotiate a new contract, and the pub says, "Well, you have only 75,000 readers here," we can say, "Oh, no -- look at these numbers: I have over 200,000 readers! So, maybe, you could increase my print runs and come up with an ad campaign to try to persuade some of those people to buy my books new?"

Not that it's ever going to happen under existing laws. Because if it did, publishers would have the ammunition to file a lawsuit challenging the books-are-real-property laws. They'd be able to prove, once and for all, that both they and we have been deprived of income on an enormous scale.

Not gonna happen. So, I suppose all you can hope for is that the percentage of readers buying you new is high enough to impress your publisher.

And I'll continue to watch, with complete bafflement, the vocal support of writers for the sale of used books without compensation.

aruna · Aug 2, 2010

CheshireCat said:
Every individual has to make that choice. But writers, especially, need to think carefully about what it means. Especially if they want to be in this business for the long haul.

.

You know, I did think about it some more last nicht and came to the conclusion that after this batch of books, I will be withdrawing form the bookswapping site. It's not just that it's tempting to replace my entire collection of used books with other used books, which leaves me right back where I started; it's that I came to some uncomfortable conclusions of my own.

It's one thing to walk past a used book shop, stop and browse (I just can't help it!) and buy something spontaneously. something you would never have expressly looked for.

It's another thing to know what book you want to buy, maybe one that was released just a few weeks ago, go to amazon and buy it for a few pence, or swap it for another book. The book I have that has had FOUR requests is actually quite hot at the moment -- I didn't like it much, but obviously, those who requested it from me went to the site looking for it, and found a cheap way of getting hold of it. That really is wrong. They should be buying it new.

I think I'm going to go to that site's community pages and start a forum thread on this subject. They are book lovers so they should be concerned about authors. I'll suggest that for every book they swap, they should go out and buy one more new. That's more or less what I do, but I can imagine with bookswapping you could actually fulfill all of your reading needs simply by swapping and reswapping and reswapping. That's not fair.

In the meantime, I still have a box of used books I want to get rid of. Any suggestions of how to do so ethically? I'll send them free to AWers if you send me an SAE! Maybe I'll just post a list here!

Terie · Aug 2, 2010

CheshireCat said:
As I said, every author has to make the decision of whether or not to support used sales on their own. I don't judge anybody for making a choice I wouldn't make. I just want to make sure it's an informed choice, that writers aren't buying into the "it doesn't matter" bullshit. Because that's what it is.

I believe I set out my support for the sale and swapping of used books quite clearly in an earlier post. I was once poor enough that that was the only way I could afford reading material. I consider it 'paying it forward' not to begrudge people today doing the same thing I did 30 years ago.

In addition to used books, I have in my life bought: used cars, used clothes, used appliances, used bicycles, used shoes, used furniture, pretty much anything that isn't consumable. To say that books ought to be excluded from the list just because now it's in my own personal best interests if everyone who read my books bought brand new copies would be the height of hypocrisy. I choose not to be that kind of hypocrite.

And I respectfully disagree that it's a 'problem' for the simple reason that the used book trade has been around for probably one year less than the new book trade has been around. It's simply a fact of life, and while publishers, retail outlets, and even some authors might wish it went away, it's not like it's something new that has suddenly cropped up on the scene. It's ALWAYS been a factor in ALL trade of virtually ALL non-consumables.

Finally, in the big picture, less waste on this planet it good. If I buy a book and don't wish to keep it, far better that I pass it on to someone else than that I throw it away.

defcon6000 · Aug 2, 2010

Terie said:
Finally, in the big picture, less waste on this planet it good. If I buy a book and don't wish to keep it, far better that I pass it on to someone else than that I throw it away.

This.

I know I can't always afford the books that I want to read, and I don't normally read recent releases, but older novels that have been around for over 20 years. And if people who bought and read than novel many years ago decide they no longer want the book, I'll gladly take it off their hands, or if they donate it to a library I'll just check it out there. If I like what I read and I like the author, when I have the money I'll buy the book and other books from that author.

aruna · Aug 2, 2010

OK, I just packaged five books and am off to post them. Somehow it gives me the warm fuzzies: to have the actual names of people (all women) who will be reading me old books!

I'm also going to be putting some more books up with one intention: six copies of my own novels are up there and I want to get them back. It's cheaper than from the publisher or from amazon and I often need copies to give to friends.

CheshireCat · Aug 2, 2010

I think I'm going to go to that site's community pages and start a forum thread on this subject. They are book lovers so they should be concerned about authors. I'll suggest that for every book they swap, they should go out and buy one more new. That's more or less what I do, but I can imagine with bookswapping you could actually fulfill all of your reading needs simply by swapping and reswapping and reswapping. That's not fair.

Good idea. One of the things I've been strongly aware of over the years is how few book lovers really understand how writers earn their living. Many really are under the impression that we get paid for every sale -- or that we get paid enough initially that it doesn't matter which, as we all know, isn't true.

In addition to used books, I have in my life bought: used cars, used clothes, used appliances, used bicycles, used shoes, used furniture, pretty much anything that isn't consumable. To say that books ought to be excluded from the list just because now it's in my own personal best interests if everyone who read my books bought brand new copies would be the height of hypocrisy. I choose not to be that kind of hypocrite.

See, this is one of the problems to me. If you, a writer, can't see the difference between a chair or a blouse and a book, then what hope is there for the average consumer to understand? A book is not a chair or a blouse. A book is the package of the unique creation of an individual mind -- intellectual property.

A chair or a blouse, sold over and over again, is going to show some wear and tear, and eventually, in most cases, decreases in worth; my book, providing no pages are missing, provides exactly the same brand-new reading experience to the twentieth reader as it does to the first. In buying a copy of my book, they're buying a package that contains an entertainment experience.

What I find depressing is that I've argued this point over and over through the years -- with other writers. Some of whom are no longer writing because they couldn't make a living doing so. There's irony for you.

As to the point that books have been sold used as long as they've been sold: one, that doesn't make it right; and, two, it's the existence of the internet that has turned the sale of used books into Big, Big Business.

Again, there are very large, very successful companies who got that way by selling my work used without a penny in compensation to me. I have not, do not, and will never consider that right.

Just my opinion, of course.

waylander · Aug 3, 2010

aruna said:
In the meantime, I still have a box of used books I want to get rid of. Any suggestions of how to do so ethically? I'll send them free to AWers if you send me an SAE! Maybe I'll just post a list here!

Donate them to the Friends' shop at your local hospital

UK: book swapping

On a wing and a prayer

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