Adverbs

popmuze · Jul 18, 2010

Okay, there's been a lot of hyperbole lately about the use of adverbs. Or rather the use of no adverbs. But let's get down to facts and figures (before I go out of my mind).

For a 75,000 word YA manuscript, at what number of adverbs should I start to worry (and to fiercely eliminate them)?

Danthia · Jul 18, 2010

It's not that cut and dry. If you have 1000 well-used adverbs and flow seamlessly with the story, 1000 is fine. If you have 50 that are used poorly, 50 is too many.

You're much better off looking at each adverb and deciding if there's a better way to say the same thing without it, or if that adverb is the right word for that sentence. Get rid of every lazy adverb. Keep the ones pulling their weight.

popmuze · Jul 18, 2010

What seems to be cropping up is the word "only." It looks like I'm stylistically addicted to it. So far (50 pages) I can't figure out a way to eliminate any of them. Not that I have five in three sentences or anything. But it's by far my favorite adverb.

Bufty · Jul 18, 2010

Cut them all out and see if the sentence still conveys the intended meaning with clarity. If it doesn't, find a way to rephrase it so that it does.

Is there a stronger verb you could use?

It's nothing to do with facts and figures.

You could eliminate that 'fiercely' for a start.

Dave.C.Robinson · Jul 18, 2010

I use adverbs as signposts. Whenever I see one I ask myself if the adverb means I'm using the wrong verb. Sometimes the adverb should be there, but more often than not it's a sign I need to do more polishing.

Jennasis · Jul 18, 2010

The rules can suck it. If I want to use an adverb and feel it's the best word for that particular sentence, then by crackey that's what I'm using!

Bufty · Jul 18, 2010

If someone's work is littered with adverbs used through habit and not design they are not doing themselves any favours.

I don't know to what rules you are referring.

Jennasis said:
The rules can suck it. If I want to use an adverb and feel it's the best word for that particular sentence, then by crackey that's what I'm using!

ChaosTitan · Jul 18, 2010

Danthia said:
It's not that cut and dry. If you have 1000 well-used adverbs and flow seamlessly with the story, 1000 is fine. If you have 50 that are used poorly, 50 is too many.

You're much better off looking at each adverb and deciding if there's a better way to say the same thing without it, or if that adverb is the right word for that sentence. Get rid of every lazy adverb. Keep the ones pulling their weight.

This.

NicoleMD · Jul 18, 2010

Danthia said:
It's not that cut and dry. If you have 1000 well-used adverbs and flow seamlessly with the story, 1000 is fine. If you have 50 that are used poorly, 50 is too many.

Too true! I guess the question is, do you want this project to have adverb usage that's sparse, generous, or somewhere in between? There's no right or wrong answer. It's just the execution that's important.

Nicole

Jamesaritchie · Jul 18, 2010

popmuze said:
What seems to be cropping up is the word "only." It looks like I'm stylistically addicted to it. So far (50 pages) I can't figure out a way to eliminate any of them. Not that I have five in three sentences or anything. But it's by far my favorite adverb.

I'd cut "only" as many times as possible. "Only" is a particularly weak adverb, and is almost never needed.

As an adjective, "only" usually is needed and stands up well, but as an adverb, it does nothing but sit there.

I don't know much about YA, but my rule is that many adverbs are just fine in MG, but darned few work at all well in adult.

Hallen · Jul 18, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
I'd cut "only" as many times as possible. "Only" is a particularly weak adverb, and is almost never needed.

As an adjective, "only" usually is needed and stands up well, but as an adverb, it does nothing but sit there.

I don't know much about YA, but my rule is that many adverbs are just fine in MG, but darned few work at all well in adult.

And almost is almost never needed either.

The 'rule' is a guideline, nothing more.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 18, 2010

Hallen said:
And almost is almost never needed either.

The 'rule' is a guideline, nothing more.

Yes, it's a guideline, but guidelines are there for a reason, and not following them usually results in poor, often unpublishable, writing.

It's an odd, and all too common, attitude to think that because something is a guideline, rather than a hard and fast rule, you're free to ignore it completely.

And sometimes, just sometimes, "almost" is needed.

When a word isn't needed, don't use it. When a word makes writing weaker, and adverbs generally do weaken adult writing, using that word anyway, just because guidelines aren't rules, is something we're all allowed to do, but which does weaken writing.

Eddyz Aquila · Jul 18, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
Yes, it's a guideline, but guidelines are there for a reason, and not following them usually results in poor, often unpublishable, writing.

But it can result in some fantastic nonconformist work which breaks the usual norm.

About adverbs, use as many as you feel like it. Make sure it sounds both in your mind and out loud good (or perfect!). If the writing is enjoyable, adverbs can provide a good addition and work well. But don't overdo it.

Swordswoman · Jul 18, 2010

popmuze said:
Okay, there's been a lot of hyperbole lately about the use of adverbs. Or rather the use of no adverbs. But let's get down to facts and figures (before I go out of my mind).

For a 75,000 word YA manuscript, at what number of adverbs should I start to worry (and to fiercely eliminate them)?

popmuze, there ARE no facts and figures. Truly.

If you need to be told there's a problem with 'he ran quickly' then yes, you need to check every single adverb you have to be sure it's got a purpose of its own that couldn't be replaced by the use of a strong verb.

If (like most on AW) you're a little more advanced than that, then all you need to do is check your adverbs with the same eagle-eye you check every other word you've used - is it the right word with the right rhythm meaning exactly the right thing, and if it isn't then WTF is it doing there?

That's all there is. There are no guidelines, and there are no rules. Occasionally a writer comes along like Stephen King who says 'adverbs are bad' even if he uses them himself, and the very desperate will interpret this as an absolute mantra. Those who naturally incline to the kind of purple prose that causes slushpiles to sprout broccoli will even need such advice.

Most don't. From what I've seen of your very crisp and incisive writing, I somehow doubt you do either.

Louise

PS And of course you need 'fiercely'. Personally I don't like the split infinitive, but your post isn't about my individual likes or dislikes. Your 'fiercely' is a classic example of how an adverb can convey tone (and humour) like no other word...

Ryan_Sullivan · Jul 18, 2010

You should never cut out an entire type of word--use them! The problem with adverbs is not simply their existence, but rather it's the way people use them. Often writers use things like "slowly" or "quickly" when they aren't needed, or they use weak ones. Go for the adverbs, just use strong ones (often adjectives turned into adverbs can add a lot of voice/punch) to get your point across.

Steam&Ink · Jul 18, 2010

popmuze said:
What seems to be cropping up is the word "only." It looks like I'm stylistically addicted to it. So far (50 pages) I can't figure out a way to eliminate any of them. Not that I have five in three sentences or anything. But it's by far my favorite adverb.

Well, this isn't about adverbs, but your comment above reminded me of it: when I read my script aloud to my husband (very effective for finding typos and grammar issues), I noticed a surfeit of littles - 260 instances of the word "little", in about the same amount of pages.
I had no idea I was so addicited to such a bland word! So I did word search in Word, and examined each instance with a critical eye. I ended up keeping less than half, and now I feel confident that the remaining littles are justified.

I guess you might do the same for your adverbs? (this is me trying to tie in my random anecdote with the thread theme

)

Cholisose · Jul 18, 2010

The way I understand it is that adverbs can often be replaced with stronger action verbs that make the story more active.
Sometimes the story calls for an adverb to flow well though, in my opinion. There are probably good examples in the published book you may be reading right now.

Greeble · Jul 19, 2010

popmuze said:
For a 75,000 word YA manuscript, at what number of adverbs should I start to worry (and to fiercely eliminate them)?

You should use adverbs sparingly.

shaldna · Jul 19, 2010

Danthia said:
It's not that cut and dry. If you have 1000 well-used adverbs and flow seamlessly with the story, 1000 is fine. If you have 50 that are used poorly, 50 is too many.

This.

Phaeal · Jul 19, 2010

I love strong and vivid verbs, which pwn weak verb plus adverb.

Pwn is a strong, if slangy and community-specific, verb.

Most of the weasel adverbs, like almost, can go. Um, usually.

Danthia · Jul 19, 2010

Only is more of a judgment word than a true adverb. I use it a lot myself. What I do, is ignore it in a first draft, then do a search for it after. I make every only bold and red and then look at each one and decide if it needs to be there or not. Often I can get rid of it. If I can't (or like how it reads better with it) I make sure I don't have a bunch more nearby in the text.

Only doesn't jump out that much unless there are a lot close together. If you space them out, and they read smoothly, you shouldn't have a problem.

popmuze · Jul 19, 2010

Since this is a first person narrative, sometimes the adverbs are part of the guy's voice, used for hyperbolic effect, as in "she had no use for my obviously clever and totally moving excuse."

seun · Jul 19, 2010

popmuze said:
For a 75,000 word YA manuscript, at what number of adverbs should I start to worry (and to fiercely eliminate them)?

20.643633210. No more than that or the adverb police will come round your house and do you over.

popmuze · Jul 19, 2010

Danthia said:
I make every only bold and red and then look at each one and decide if it needs to be there or not.

I do the word search thing myself. My character seems addicted to "obviously" and "certainly," which are expendable 99% of the time. Although I like the rhythm they provide. What I do is search for, say, "that" and replace it with "THAT." Then I remove all the unnecessary uses of "THAT." Then I search again for "THAT" and replace it with "that."

Right now my "that" number is 765.

popmuze · Jul 19, 2010

seun said:
20.643633210. No more than that or the adverb police will come round your house and do you over.

I have a very good relationship with the adverb police. Turns out they're the kind of guys who couldn't even get jobs as mall cops. I bought them off with a couple of past participles each.

By the way, I started this adverb removal operation with about 1100. I'll check in with my final figures.

You could do all sorts of word searches. I'm thinking of gerunds next. It's a great way to not actually rewrite the book.

Adverbs

Last of a Dying Breed

Danthia

Last of a Dying Breed

Where have the last ten years gone?

... with the High Command

Where have the last ten years gone?

Around

Onomatopotamus

Mostly annoying

Noob Writers United

Resilient and kind

Agented YA Writer

sekrit superhero

...

The cake is a lie. But still cake.

Whatever I did, I didn't do it.

Danthia

Last of a Dying Breed

Horror Man

Last of a Dying Breed

Last of a Dying Breed