Fantasy and YA questions.

Nateskate · Aug 29, 2005

Okay, I have a question. (who doesn't?)

As I'm leaning more towards YA fantasy, I'm having an inner debate about the use of names in a story. To me this is sort of like the Goldilocks' dilema. You don't want to get too sophisticated, but you don't want to get too trite either.

Most of the beings in the story have entirely unique names. However, in some places I've used names that telegraph something.

I'll use a name I'm not considering in order to make the illustration:

There is a field where people go seeking messages in dreams. I've been leaning towards a giveaway name like "Nightmeera" -well, a little more sophisticated. It's obviously a deceptive place akin to a mental Venus Fly Trap, where self-destructive thoughts are sown. It promises hope but always leads to despair.

Where do you draw the line with the use of using of giveaway names; and can you get away with this when you're leaning towards both a YA and adult audience? The idea is to create a sense of impending doom, but not sound too cartoonish. Does it even make a difference?

The fantasy has some light elements, but overall becomes very dark. Honestly, it goes from a little south of The Hobbit to the Downfall of Numenor.

Niesta · Aug 29, 2005

It's always better to err on the side of sophistication, IMO. Even if you think they won't get it at that age, many will, and those who don't get it right then may get it later, which will add depth and bring them back. I think that's why Tolkien (since you brought him up) stands up so well to repeated readings -- there are many layers of meaning, and every new reading shows you something new.

Nateskate · Aug 29, 2005

Niesta said:
It's always better to err on the side of sophistication, IMO. Even if you think they won't get it at that age, many will, and those who don't get it right then may get it later, which will add depth and bring them back. I think that's why Tolkien (since you brought him up) stands up so well to repeated readings -- there are many layers of meaning, and every new reading shows you something new.

Interesting thought. I'm re-reading the Silmarillion, but I doubt I'll ever re-read Narnia, though I enjoyed it at the time.

I find the Silmarillion is better the second time around. The first time I had to work to remember all the names because there were so many, and similar names to boot. It's an odd book because he speaks mostly through Narrative for the first 1/3 of the book. I'd still love to be able to come up with some of his prose though.

Danger Jane · Aug 29, 2005

Giveaway names (obvious ones, rather than ones that derive from, say, another language, but are still giveaways) are a bit of a turnoff to me, so be careful that the character with that kind of name is VERY well-rounded and real.

The reason I stick my fantasy-ish roots in a real setting is that names baffle, but fascinate me. There are a wealth of amazing, and perfect, real names out there, and I love finding the exact right one. But I hate it when you can tell the author was sticking cool-sounding syllables together, especially if they get really long. ("Hi, Ylsoweien! Want to come over my house to slay dragons?" Duh, hyperbole, but you get my meaning, I hope).

Names are tricky animals.

Hummingbird · Aug 29, 2005

My favorites are ones that sound similar to real names, but changed enough to sound like another. Does that make sense? Anyway, this isn't a name, but in the second Pendragon book they have a saying 'Tum-tigger' to mean a big problem. I'm guessing it's from that gut wrenching feeling of impending doom.
In alot of the books I read and the name is cartoony, fits well anyway. There are a few where I go, "Um.. they could've worked harder for a name." But for the most part they all sound fine to me.

Mistook · Aug 29, 2005

Why go for a transparent place name when you can invent a name that will one day come to be synonymous with the idea you're trying to portray?

Torgo · Aug 30, 2005

I reckon names are quite important in fantasy. Some people have the knack (Wolfe, Vance) and some people don't (too many to mention.) I think 'Nightmeera' errs on the side of trite, to be honest.

Gene Wolfe picked all his character names for The Book of the New Sun from lists of mediaeval saints, which means that they all sound plausible but rather alien: Severian, Dorcas, Cyricaca...

Christine N. · Aug 30, 2005

I had this same problem picking out a villian name for Talisman. See, she's the Empress' twin sister. The Empress' name is Lionors (which, despite its obvious overtones, IS an actual medieval name - I chose it for its overtones) and so I wanted something that showed her opposite without being obvious or 'cartoony'. I tossed around variations of 'serpent' - and hated them all. Some were WAY too "masters of the universe" for me.

Someone told me that the latin (I think it's Latin) for 'snake' (or was it cobra, I forget now) is Naja. That was much better, so I came up with three or variations of that word. Her name ended up being Najira - exotic, and with all the connotations I sought. Now, my audience may never figure it out, but I know. It fits.

So, long story short, do a little language research, find a variation that you like, and play around with it.

I won't even tell you how long it took me to come up with Zandria.

Danger Jane · Aug 30, 2005

Names are really important for me. The meaning has to fit, for me to be satisfied. Just like Christine said--if no one else makes the connection, it HAS got a meaning. Not just chosen for the sound.

Ah, just so you know--the Romans didn't have a word (or, at least, an even slightly commonplace one) for cobra...or the letter "j". Their words for snake were serpens (which would be a total giveaway, lol) and anguis. So whatever language that is, it isn't Latin. Ah, sorry, I'm a dump of useless imformation about Latin...

Nateskate · Aug 30, 2005

Mdlle. Nancy said:
Giveaway names (obvious ones, rather than ones that derive from, say, another language, but are still giveaways) are a bit of a turnoff to me, so be careful that the character with that kind of name is VERY well-rounded and real.

The reason I stick my fantasy-ish roots in a real setting is that names baffle, but fascinate me. There are a wealth of amazing, and perfect, real names out there, and I love finding the exact right one. But I hate it when you can tell the author was sticking cool-sounding syllables together, especially if they get really long. ("Hi, Ylsoweien! Want to come over my house to slay dragons?" Duh, hyperbole, but you get my meaning, I hope).

Names are tricky animals.

I'm going a lot on instincts. Perhaps I'm flying by the seat of my pants. The fall of Tolkien's world takes place before Elfkind or Mankind are introduced in the Silmarillion. The Valar have already fought a war that diminishes Arda.

There is a type of fall in the world I've created, but the first domino in the overt crash (akin to the fall of Numenor) takes place well after a thousand years.

Now, again, this is where sophistication starts to be subjective. I want the fresh new world to be innocent sounding. In a sense, the first names in human history were definitions. I.E- the root of "Adam" means "Red Clay" and is later used as the root of the word "Edom". Figuratively it means "Of the earth". In "Adam" it is literal-made of the earth, in "Edom" it is somewhat of an insult-earthly as in not spiritual. However, people's names would be something like "Jabez", which translate, "one who causes pain".

I picture innocent animals using the simplest names, mostly descriptive. Obviously this works well in children's stories, but I'm curious where you can push the limit with YA.

So, I have talking animals in the first several chapters of the book that act like naive creatures would, which is to sound a little like bumpkins. Ancient language is far from sophisticated in that you threw a bunch of rootwords together and used them contextually to say whatever it is you wanted to say. Words multiplied over time.

However, with all that said, I appreciate your feedback, because ultimately I could write a story with some intended meaning that nobody gets.

I'm trying to portray an innocent world that becomes corrupt, and perhaps that's not a great idea?

Nateskate · Aug 30, 2005

Mistook said:
Why go for a transparent place name when you can invent a name that will one day come to be synonymous with the idea you're trying to portray?

That's an interesting point, and I agree. I've thought about that. However, in some books you have a mix. Tolkien used unique names. However, the root of the names from Rohan are all "horse" "eo"- so, you have names which are in the native tongue definitions- Eomir, Eowyn" Th-EO-din.

In their native tongue you would be "Horse Lord" or whatever, which doesn't sound sophisticated because it's not. It's only sophisticated to someone who doesn't speak the native tongue.

And as far as species, he could have used something other than "Elves" or "Dwarves", but instead he re-defined Elves, and adds depth to the Dwarf legends.

Nateskate · Aug 30, 2005

Mdlle. Nancy said:
Names are really important for me. The meaning has to fit, for me to be satisfied. Just like Christine said--if no one else makes the connection, it HAS got a meaning. Not just chosen for the sound.

Ah, just so you know--the Romans didn't have a word (or, at least, an even slightly commonplace one) for cobra...or the letter "j". Their words for snake were serpens (which would be a total giveaway, lol) and anguis. So whatever language that is, it isn't Latin. Ah, sorry, I'm a dump of useless imformation about Latin...

Yeah, a discussion on the roots of language. This is a nice direction to go in. Latin is a good place to start. Heck, this sounds weird, but I can just use the roots from a medical dictionary and find some cool names to build on.

Endocraties. Betouin. Metacarpus. Carpula.

Niesta · Aug 30, 2005

Okay, "Carpula" makes me think of a vampire goldfish. I'm just sayin'. :banana:

scarletpeaches · Aug 30, 2005

No-one's ever written a book about a vampire goldfish, have they?

Nateskate · Aug 31, 2005

scarletpeaches said:
No-one's ever written a book about a vampire goldfish, have they?

Dare to dream! But it's a fishbowl reality.

Christine N. · Aug 31, 2005

Yeah, as soon as I clicked post reply I knew that latin wasn't right. I forget, but Naja is some word for snake or cobra or something in some language. LOL
Incidentally, I later noticed that JR Rowling also used the word... Voldemort's snake is named... Najini. I had forgotten all about it, and I don't think anyone will make the connection.

SJB · Aug 31, 2005

Christine N. said:
Yeah, as soon as I clicked post reply I knew that latin wasn't right. I forget, but Naja is some word for snake or cobra or something in some language. LOL
Incidentally, I later noticed that JR Rowling also used the word... Voldemort's snake is named... Najini. I had forgotten all about it, and I don't think anyone will make the connection.

Er, Rowling's naming of characters is anything but subtle, and anyone with familarity with Indian religion will have heard of the Naga / Nagini. Heck, anyone who's played Heroes III or other silly computer games of its ilk will recognise the word. Googling "naga harry potter" shows that more than a few people have cottoned onto the connection.

#

I hate giveaway names in books (Rowling's names drive me bonkers, but then, kids are stupid and have to be beaten about the heads with these things, I suppose). I also hate needlessly unusual names AND ridiculously prosaic ones. A book where all the sheilas were called Jane and Anne and all the blokes John and Bill is as boring as one populated with J'tal'ok'ipsdhs and F'gnat'elk'rhino'beetles. No, actually, I'll hate the latter more. My idea of Hell is being locked in a room for eternity with nothing to read but bloody Anne McCaffrey books.

I like a character who has exactly the RIGHT name. I doubt people would still be reading today about the adventures of one soulless Civil War minx with the hopelessly inept name of Pansy O'Hara. You can't imagine Shadow (of Neil Gaiman's American Gods), Stalky (of Kipling's Stalky and Co) or Nick Bottom as entities separate from their appellations, can you?

If you can't hit on the right name for a character, don't give it. I love du Maurier's Rebecca and it doesn't bother me at all that the narrator remains nameless throughout. Had she been called Gertie or something equally dreadful, I doubt I'd sympathise with her as much.

#

Of course, FINDING the right name is hard, isn't it? One of the main characters of my novel-in-progress is currently called "Louise," which is a blowsy, insubstantial name and doesn't fit her at all. If I think of her as Louise, she acts like a complete wimp. There isn't much that I can do about THAT until the hag decides to tell me what her name is, though.

scarletpeaches · Aug 31, 2005

The heroine of my WIP is called Eleanor and her two sisters have 'old fashioned' names as well - This is because she starts off very prim and reserved, so I wanted to give her a ladylike name that would 'fit' and become more ironic as she comes out of her shell.

But then, it's not a fantasy novel, so ignore this post.

Nateskate · Aug 31, 2005

SJB said:
I like a character who has exactly the RIGHT name. I doubt people would still be reading today about the adventures of one soulless Civil War minx with the hopelessly inept name of Pansy O'Hara.

LOL. Name making is an art.

I agree. My question was not about the proper names of the characters, but the name of a place. With world building, Bob and Earnest are out. Yet, there really is a "too much" or "too little" thing about names.

In my mind Mount Doom is a name that can be construed as cartoonish, because it is a dead giveaway. However, if you get into the headspace, it works. Treebeard is also a cartoonish name. Obviously these names became beloved by fantasy lovers despite that fact.

The reason I'm using these illustrations is because I think people automatically write off these kinds of names as being useless. In my thinking, the real key is not writing a cartoonish book, which has to be spelled out before you start name dropping. But once you establish that, I'm thinking there is room for give-away names.

Also, I'm not giving the name I'm considering, but a type. Honestly, if I were to use this name I'd use an odd spelling like Nytmara. It doesn't hit the eye as obvious, but it hits the mind with the picture.

Danger Jane · Aug 31, 2005

Niesta said:
Okay, "Carpula" makes me think of a vampire goldfish. I'm just sayin'.

OMFG I JUST QUERIED SOME FAMOUS AGENT ABOUT THIS AND TURNS OUT, THEY LOVE IT!!!

I think "phalanges" could totally be a name all on its own. But sooner or later some erudite would figure out it means "toes".

katiemac · Aug 31, 2005

think "phalanges" could totally be a name all on its own. But sooner or later some erudite would figure out it means "toes".

A character on Friends, Phoebe, always uses that as her pseudonym. "Regina Phalanges."

Christine N. · Aug 31, 2005

Didn't Phoebe Buffet use that as a last name on some epidsode of friends? Miss. Phalanges or something?

I wanted to say that Naga (Naja) was an Egyptian word.. geez, don't know why that bothers me so now.

Niesta · Aug 31, 2005

Naga comes from Hindi (or Sanskrit). Rudyard Kipling used "Nag" for the cobra in Rikki-Tikki-Tavi. It's a name that's seen quite a bit of use, frankly.

And Carpula the Vampire Goldfish is mine! MIIIIINE! Y'all just back off! :guns:

fedorable1 · Aug 31, 2005

I tend to use several methods when coming up with character names. Some of them have been mentioned already.

* First I tend to go with Latin. It's simple. No one speaks it officially any more, yet it's similar enough for people to get a sense of what you want. for instance, there are two characters in one story named Argentaes and Praissen Steorra. Argenteas (that's right) has silver hair, and often wheres bright or decorative clothes. He's simple and to the point, like the name. Praissen is a traveller and very diplomatic, very regal. His name means "He who follows/worships the stars." It fits.

* If I can't find anything interesting there, I go with mythological dieties or creatures. Usually the more obscure ones, but sometimes more obvious. Having two ships named Schylla and Charybdis, or a large aircraft called R.O.C. would make a lot of sense to some people. A good place to go for that is the Encyclopedia Mythica.

* A simpler, but verging on lazy, approach is also to warp a real name. Robyn, Darril, Zo, Zabeth (from Elizabeth), Alex Zander, etc.

* If all else fails, you can just make it up. As said before, though, make sure it's not too distracting to read or too blatant. Like Slitherin... :Ssh:

I tend to go in that order. Latin is my home boy, and borrowing from a familiar - but not too familiar - source can be benefitial if you're going for a particilar effect, feeling, or emotion.

watcher · Sep 1, 2005

There is a field where people go seeking messages in dreams. I've been leaning towards a giveaway name like "Nightmeera" -well, a little more sophisticated. It's obviously a deceptive place akin to a mental Venus Fly Trap, where self-destructive thoughts are sown. It promises hope but always leads to despair.

Have you tried looking key words up in a Thesaurus? Nightmare, despair, dream, deception?

Fantasy and YA questions.

Nateskate

Niesta

Canada's sweetheart

Nateskate

Danger Jane

Hummingbird

Pen, Paper, Prepared. ...Write!

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Torgo

Formerly Phantom of Krankor.

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Danger Jane

Nateskate

Nateskate

Nateskate

Niesta

Canada's sweetheart

scarletpeaches

Nateskate

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

SJB

Lhude sing cuccu!

scarletpeaches

Nateskate

Danger Jane

katiemac

Five by Five

Christine N.

haz a shiny new book cover

Niesta

Canada's sweetheart

fedorable1

Hopeless Romantic

watcher