First-person omniscient--really???

The Lonely One · Apr 5, 2010

My current fiction teacher is one which...sad to say, I don't really trust on the subject after several really ignorant comments and a general inability to structure her class.

However, she mentioned among possible POVs that of first-person omniscient.

I have to say, it's never been mentioned to me up to this point, and what I find upon a quick google search is less than informative.

Is first-person omniscient similar to third-person omniscient, only that the narrator is also a character which alters or interacts with the narrative? Is it a form of meta-fiction? It seems as if God would be an unlikely character in most stories...it's just confusing to me.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist, but if it does, my professor did a shitty job of explaining it. Anyone mind lending a hand?

And is there an example out there? I've never read one and no one I've talked to seems to know of an example either.

Smish · Apr 5, 2010

I'm no expert when it comes to POV types (I stick with basic first person, and sometimes close-third), and I'm not sure exactly what your teacher was talking about. However, I think an example of 1st-omniscient would be The Book Thief. The novel is narrated by Death, and it feels a lot like third-person omniscient at times.

If you haven't read the book, you should. It's great.

BoldSpice · Apr 5, 2010

I've found David Jauss very good at explaining this, in his article "From Long Shots to X-Rays: Distance & Point of View in Fiction Writing". Either read his book, or read an extract from the article here http://www.awpwriter.org/magazine/writers/djauss01.htm

backslashbaby · Apr 5, 2010

That's a great article.

Imho, 1st person omni is just like omni, but you say "I"

It's not really God telling the 3rd-person version

juniper · Apr 5, 2010

Maybe "The Lovely Bones" by Alice Sebold - I haven't read it myself, but reviews have mentioned it's 1st person omni, POV a murdered child who knows the thoughts of others.

Shadow_Ferret · Apr 5, 2010

Third person omniscient is a method of storytelling in which the narrator knows the thoughts and feelings of all of the characters in the story, as opposed to third person limited, which adheres closely to one character's perspective.

OK. So that means in First Person Omniscient, the MC would be able to know all the thoughts and feelings of all the characters. That means, to me, the MC would have to be psychic, or godlike.

Something like:

She gave me a loving smile, but thought, Man, he's an idiot. I just smiled and decided not to point out that I could read her thoughts.

ETA: Juniekat gave an example.

BoldSpice · Apr 5, 2010

Shadow_Ferret said:
OK. So that means in First Person Omniscient, the MC would be able to know all the thoughts and feelings of all the characters...

Something like that, if the MC is the narrator.

JayG · Apr 5, 2010

Shadow_Ferret said:
OK. So that means in First Person Omniscient, the MC would be able to know all the thoughts and feelings of all the characters. That means, to me, the MC would have to be psychic, or godlike.

Or dead, as has been mentioned. For living people I would see it as the style most new writers use, that of narrating the story from a distance, in the POV of the narrator, in the present time, omniscient—the excuse being that now, they know what everyone was thinking, then.

I suppose it can be made to work. If you're good enough anything can be made to work.

Matera the Mad · Apr 5, 2010

In other words, it can be done, and has been done. I imagine it could also be done badly, as a head-hopping ego trip, and that makes me absolutely dead certain it will be the latest fad any day now

*snert*

sunandshadow · Apr 5, 2010

It could be first person omniscient with a normal human narrator if the story was in the past and the narrator was telling it all with the benefit of hindsight and knowing how it would all turn out.

Jamie Stone · Apr 5, 2010

Shadow_Ferret said:
She gave me a loving smile, but thought, Man, he's an idiot. I just smiled and decided not to point out that I could read her thoughts.

~~This wouldn't be first person omni. Well, technically it would, but it would be a bad job of it.~~ I'm sorry, I totally misread this. Well, I suppose if a character were psychic, yeah, this would be 1st omni. Although technically I think omni implies a knowledge of what is happening in ALL places in the story at ALL times, both physical movements and speech? Which does not tend to be the case with psychics.

The example that jumped to my mind was indeed the Lovely Bones; the little girl who is dead is narrating the story of everyone she left behind as they try to unravel her murder. Good book. Peony in Love makes some use of this POV, if I recall correctly.

If I had to explain the concept, it would be that (1) the narrator and the protagonist are usually NOT the same, and (2) the narrator is made all-knowing through a God-status, death, etc.. Often the only way one can distinguish 1st person omniscient from 3rd person omni is that the narrator may give their opinion on the events in the story; otherwise, it looks an awful lot like 3rd person omni.

BoldSpice · Apr 6, 2010

This is from David Jauss's article, and I think it's worth pondering:

...when I talk about "omniscience," I'm not referring to its ostensible meaning-"all-knowing" and "truthful"-but to the narrative technique of reporting-whether accurately or not-characters' thoughts and feelings. It seems to me that we can't understand how point of view actually works in fiction until we put more emphasis on technique than we do on Truth.

Fallen · Apr 6, 2010

I don't think there's much between 1st and full omniscience: both show distinctive language and turn of phrase that reveal a) narrator (1st) and b) storytellor (omni) but...

I'm not a big fan of 1st p, and I think that's just put me off it altogether.

3rd p objective, now that's a good one.

kurzon · Apr 6, 2010

I'd put it as: a story told in first person, where the narrator tells you how other people are thinking and feeling. I've seen this done and the narrator isn't presented as godlike at all, but they are usually presented as telling the story as something which has already happened to them. "When I was ten, me and Jimmy went to The Woods. Jimmy was scared to death of The Woods, but he durn't tell me that at the time, 'cause when I was ten I was Jimmy's whole world and there weren't a darn thing he wouldn't do for me."

aadams73 · Apr 6, 2010

I can't recall ever reading first person omni, but now I'm intrigued.

I see a trip to B&N in my near future.

shaldna · Apr 6, 2010

First person omni - I fully expect your character to be a mind reader or god.

sohalt · Apr 6, 2010

"The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman" is fairly first-person omnisicient. Tristram doesn't come off as exactly god like or anything, he's just got that much narrative authority. It's not meant to be taken entirely seriously though.

Of course you can always have an omniscient extra-diegetic narrator, who breaks the fourth wall, addresses the audience and talks about himself, using the pronoun "I", but doesn't actually take part in the story (although I wouldn't call that a first-person narrator; thinking that something is first-person just because a narrator says "I" is a rookie-mistake) I hope your fiction teacher didn't mean that.

kaitie · Apr 6, 2010

Satanic Verses is the one I always think of.

backslashbaby · Apr 6, 2010

Oh, good ^^^. I swore Rushdie did this in that but couldn't quite remember! It was driving me a little batty

sohalt said:
"The Life and Opinions of Tristram Shandy, Gentleman" is fairly first-person omnisicient. Tristram doesn't come off as exactly god like or anything, he's just got that much narrative authority. It's not meant to be taken entirely seriously though.

Of course you can always have an omniscient extra-diegetic narrator, who breaks the fourth wall, addresses the audience and talks about himself, using the pronoun "I", but doesn't actually take part in the story (although I wouldn't call that a first-person narrator; thinking that something is first-person just because a narrator says "I" is a rookie-mistake) I hope your fiction teacher didn't mean that.

Hmmm. If the narrator uses 'I' fairly frequently, why would that not be an example? In omni 3rd, you aren't going to find the narrator addressing the audience with 'I', right?

CaroGirl · Apr 6, 2010

For 1st person omniscient, I think there has to be some sort of supernatural element to the story. The two novels I've read that come to mind are two that have already been mentioned: The Lovely Bones (dead spirit) and The Book Thief (death himself).

claws2 · Apr 6, 2010

Hmmm. If the narrator uses 'I' fairly frequently, why would that not be an example? In omni 3rd, you aren't going to find the narrator addressing the audience with 'I', right?

Er, maybe, perhaps, ya thinking of something like,

In this town, dear reader, the people work hard everyday. Each person is pure in heart. But if we visit the town on the other side of the mountain, we will find people with black hearts. I won't show you their degenerate desires, for that will surely give you nightmares. And we all know that a man with wealth is in need of a good wife, don't we? Now, let me show you a day in the life of a good-hearted man. See that man climbing that hill over there? Well, his name is Bill ...

Yes? No?

claws2 · Apr 6, 2010

I tend to think that omniscient 1st person POV has a narrator that is a real character in the story (like regular 1st person POV) but the narration will sometimes state as "fact" stuff that the narrator-character can't really know to be "fact."

E.g., the narration will state what two other characters actually think of each other (or about a private meeting those two had but never told anyone else about), but there is no way that the narrator-character could have ever learned of that stuff (because those characters never told anyone and the narrator-character doesn't have mind-reading abilities).

So, in other words, omniscient 1st person POV is sorta like some kinds of regular 1st person POV except that some omniscient techniques are present. Or something like that, maybe.

imo.

backslashbaby · Apr 6, 2010

claws2 said:
Er, maybe, perhaps, ya thinking of something like,

Yes? No?

Hmmm. If it keeps up, yes. If I see a lot of 'I's and 'we's throughout, that's different than the omni I write, anyway

Hmmm... I just don't know! Why isn't that 1st person? If it's not just an aside, I mean.

Jamesaritchie · Apr 6, 2010

kurzon said:
I'd put it as: a story told in first person, where the narrator tells you how other people are thinking and feeling. I've seen this done and the narrator isn't presented as godlike at all, but they are usually presented as telling the story as something which has already happened to them. "When I was ten, me and Jimmy went to The Woods. Jimmy was scared to death of The Woods, but he durn't tell me that at the time, 'cause when I was ten I was Jimmy's whole world and there weren't a darn thing he wouldn't do for me."

That isn't omniscient, it's just a good memory. And probably an unreliabe memory, at that. If this qualified as omniscient, then pretty much all first person would be omniscient, and it isn't.

kurzon · Apr 6, 2010

Jamesaritchie said:
That isn't omniscient, it's just a good memory. And probably an unreliabe memory, at that. If this qualified as omniscient, then pretty much all first person would be omniscient, and it isn't.

I don't have a problem with ominscience mixing with unreliable narration.

The point being that the only novels I've encountered which I would call first person omniscient (or what I suspect the OP's teacher was calling first person omniscient) is someone telling something that happened in the past, and being able to convey with authority the thoughts and feelings of other people. [Most likely because they have subsequently had discussions with those people and been told how they felt.] I'd be curious to hear just what it is the teacher did mean, because it certainly wouldn't occur to me to include on a list "narrators who are gods".

First-person omniscient--really???

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