Plotting FAIL.

It's going to be difficult to help without having at least some idea of what the story is about, and who these characters are. Do you have multiple main characters?

You don't need to post the whole plot in detail; just a sentence or two about what the story is about. Or what these two plots lines are.

Right now we don't really know anything about the plot, or the characters, so it's a little hard to offer any help to clean up the plot or to make the character's goals clearer.

Just throwing out some ideas . . .

First I think I would decide which is the main plot. Either would work, but if it were me, I think I'm make the woman wanting revenge to be the main plot. I would define her as the main character. The man who caused the problems for both her and the ruler would be the antagonist. The others will then become minor (but still important) characters.

A vaguely similar plot is in Hamlet, although in that case the new king is both the man who caused the death of Hamlet's father, and the ruler. The main plot is Hamlet seeking to avenge his father's murder. Also, The Count of Monte Cristo is another story about revenge, and while it has a number of important characters, the main character is clearly Dantes.

For us createy folk, it should happen automatically. I'm winging my WIP on the principle of cause and effect--and staying 10,000% loyal to it. Things I don't even intend on happening happen. But because I stick to the rule, events are believable and the dreaded D.E.M is avoided. Why not give in to your true creative power and wing it instead of forcing it? You might be surprised by what you get.

As for theme? That comes out naturally during the course of the story as well. I too was obsessed with not having a "theme" for my novel, but several popped up as I soldiered on. So, like, get to work already.

I agree with third person about not worrying to much at the beginning about dramatic theme. But, in this case, I thought the OP was using the term "theme" to actually mean "plot arc". I could be wrong about this.

Haha, and this is where I'd be the opposite and say maybe she should sit down and try to outline it and figure it out. Plot is my biggest weakness, and I really have to sort it out in advance if I want to have any hope of having something good. Heck, I'm stuck on something at the moment and holding off while I try to figure it out.

I don't think you necessarily need to include back story for every main character. If the back story itself is integral to the plot, then of course it should be revealed, but if it's just to give a history it's not really necessary. You can reveal a lot about what kind of person someone is and even their experiences based solely on their actions and their words.

Do you understand the characters a hundred percent? Or at least ninety percent? I can't tell if you're saying they aren't clear to you, or if they're unclear as conveyed by the story. If it's the first, then I really suggest sitting down and writing up a character summary on each one. Stop and really think about who they are, what they want, etc. Then go back and look at the plot you have, and those notes you have written down, and see where it isn't meshing. It sounds like you might have some issues with characters not acting true to themselves, and general if you can figure that out then the plot will sort itself out as well.

kaitie said:

Haha, and this is where I'd be the opposite and say maybe she should sit down and try to outline it and figure it out.

Click to expand...

And here I thought you were my ally. Betrayal! But I do agree on your last point wholeheartedly. The more you know your characters, the easier it is to belt out pages like no one's business.

Are you still writing the first draft? If so, don't sweat it now. Just get the bones down so you have something to revise. Plus, with a book done, you'll have a better idea of the direction it does need to go. Otherwise, you're likely to spend a lot of time and frustration trying to fix the problems in the first draft and still have to change the whole thing anyway after you finish it.

Too many people focus on wanting a perfect first draft. Mine's messy. I don't know what the story is through the first draft--that's one of the reasons I write it the way I do, to find out. I'll have four main characters, but some probably won't have taken shape, and there are other characters who may come out. I may not have even settled on the bad guy. All of that gets worked on during the revisions as I reshape the story.

Theme schmeme. Fiction doesn't HAVE to have a theme. Don't concern yourself with identifying one. Let literature analysts do that for you. You just focus on telling a good story.

From your description, it strikes me that the woman who wants revenge is your real story. A leader trying to rule a country while bad stuff happens can certainly make for an interesting story in its own right, but the way you didn't really say much about this leader is telling. What does he want? What is he willing to sacrifice to get it? You didn't bother to tell us, and that makes me wonder whether he's really worth focusing on so much.

The woman, on the other hand, wants *revenge*. Wow! That says a lot right there. She's lost something dear to her, and she's willing to risk a lot -- maybe even her life -- to retrieve amends from the one who wronged her. That's the kind of baggage a word like "revenge" carries with it. I think she's where your plot is hiding. Play around with her some more. Spend some time in her head, ask her some questions...see what happens.

As for loglines and backstories, I'm just not convinced they're necessary. I think we tend to slow ourselves down by fiddling around with all this world-building stuff when it's not necessarily going to help us write a better story. If incredibly detailed world-building is enjoyable for you, then do it just for fun. But if it's only stressing you out, relax: Knowing all the intimate details of every character's life is probably not going to help you write a better book. You only really need to fully understand the motivation of your most central characters (protagonist, antagonist, and perhaps a couple of supporting characters on whom the protagonist and antagonist rely.) And you really only need to understand what drives them, not where they were born, what their parents did, etc.

Theme is what you find after the first draft, and polish during the second draft.

• Thirdly, I don't really have a 'theme'.

Without one you may be writing a chronicle.

• I was a bit apprehensive about posting the entire plot on here because a) it's really damn long and complicated and b) I'm paranoid.

What a story about isn’t the plot, it’s something like, “Be careful what you wish for, you may have to live with it,” or, “Growing up and learning to trust.”

And: forget worrying that someone might steal your plot. No two writers will produce the same story from the same parameters. Cinderella is rewritten a dozen times each year, and the plot—a girl in a hopeless situation is given altruistic help that will expose her underappreciated virtues and result in happiness—was hardly new when it was written.

What matters is how it’s written.

If you can define what your story is about, you’ll have a better handle on what matters to that story.

You might also want to think about the climax of the story. Each active scene needs to raise the stakes of that climax, introduce greater tension, and narrow the options of those who will take part in that climax.

And in general, editors favor a single climax, so any personal epiphanies the secondary story may have should work toward making the plot’s climax more intense or have fewer options available, and not dilute the impact of it on the reader.

I too agree that the woman sounds like the character you want to focus on. Theme is important, regardless of what people claim. The theme may not be so obvious, but there is still a strong connection between the events and characters of your book.

As for backstories, all you really need to know is the defining moment of the character's life. This could have been living with an abusive parent, a lost teenage love, a bitter divorce, etc. What made them the character we're reading about? Also an idea of their upbringing, their formative years- were they part of a rich family or living in poverty? Was the family strict or open?

Backstory helps you to establish what the characters were doing before the novel starts. In under-developed books, the character only exists whilst they're 'on stage' and thus we don't see any substance to them.

Your woman presumably has a motivation, which is why it might be a good idea to make her a main. Motivations give your character a reason to exist.

.

Lady Ice said:

Theme is important, regardless of what people claim.

Click to expand...

Theme is important, but it's not something you have to worry about in the first draft or something you need to force.

orangejuice said:

Okay... well, the main plot thread is about a ruler of a country having to manage things while everything goes wrong- war, plague, assasination attempts etc etc. The second plot thread is about a woman who wants revenge on a man for something he did to her in the past, and how their machinations (along with a heap of other characters) cause all the problems and the death of said ruler.

Click to expand...

It seems to me you have a good idea to start with.

Work out your POV charcaters then just approach each scene as a stand alone scene not worrying about how they fit in to the overall story line.

Fix all that up later. Just put your characters in situations and write about them. In the end you'll know how to link all the parts together into logical narrative.

Good Luck