Where are the women in espionage thrillers?

I'm a male author and I have a female-centric espionage (military somewhat) thriller called Diane Nine and the Fusion Machine. I wanted a real kiss-ass gal in the tradition of "Get away from her, you bitch!" Ripley from Alien. So I took out all the fantastical and derivative elments of Iron Man, tossed my paraplegic gal into a different setting, and let her go full mayhem on a terrorist triade, using an advanced military combat exoskeleton. Huuuraaah!

Tri

Helen McInnes wrote loads

There aren't many for one very good reason. . .publishers can't buy what writers don't wrote, and slush piles are remarkably free of women espionage writers.

I see an unexplored niche. Too bad I know nothing about spies. Well, very little. Hmmm.

...sleeping with Bond? I'd probably read espionage thrillers if they weren't generally so misogynist/male dominated... hmm... interesting...

Gayle Lynds is a successful espionage writer.

Bond makes big-time bucks in both movie and book form, even if he is mysogonistic. And I know men and women who watch the movies and love them, but not many women read the Bond books (that I know). Not sure what they says about women protags/writers, but there aren't many. For one thing, I think Jamesartchie is right, women don't write that kind of stuff.

And for the most part, we write what we like to read. As Toni Morrison said, if there's a book out there you want to read but can't find, then write it yourself. Seems no one wants to read that.

I've never been interested in espionage or political thrillers. Too testerone filled maybe? I'm not even that keen on legal thrillers. The Pelican Brief grated on me, despite loving the movie.

I'm not that big on action, I'd rather have something more 'cerebral.' Hence my love of psychological thrillers. It could be down to the lack of character development of these characters also.

Jamesaritchie said:

There aren't many for one very good reason. . .publishers can't buy what writers don't wrote, and slush piles are remarkably free of women espionage writers.

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I wroted one. Sorta. Kinda. There's a spy in it anyway. And a chick. And she's not even super hot and wearing leather...

I'm starting to see why I'm not getting requests.

Nah, truth be told I'm a chick and I still write men. I read men. It seems almost weird even to me to put a woman in this position because we don't see it often (unless they're the hot babe in skin-tight clothes using her feminine wiles to gain access to things). If I ever write the sequel to the last, the chick from this one kind of ends up doing a spy mission in her own right (same guy as before, but she's the one leading this time). Not sure if I ever will, though.

Maybe it's because of the assumption that most people reading espionage thrillers are men, and men would rather have a fanservice version of a woman than a heroine spy? (That was all part of the assumption, I don't actually believe that's true). I honestly can't think of a single female spy I've read, and the only ones I can think of even from movies or TV are the stereotyped gorgeous babe spies.

Then again, maybe men really do just write them more and maybe men tend to write male characters more often than women. I'd also guess (pure speculation here) that at least some of it has to do with the idea of what a spy does--someone who is unattached and willing and able to risk their lives, etc. I think it's easier for people to put a man into that category just based on the old family stereotypes that tend to portray the woman as a mother with obligations who should settle down.

Interesting question. Also it's midnight and I'm half asleep. If this is incoherent, that's why.

I remember watching a program, it may have been Scientific American, about a man and wife spy team. She looked like your typical housewife type, and that probably made her the perfect spy.

Well, anothee problem is that espionage novels went into a death spiral when the Soviet Union collapsed. Many writers were cut, publishers stopp buy almost all such novels, and only the top few writers managed to keep going.

It's a whole new world of espionage out there. New enemies, new ways of doing things, and not many writers, regardless of gender, have adjusted to it. Spys aren't what they used to be, and the tech has changed immensely in just the last five years.

Pervasive biases and stereotypes of any kind ruin books for me -- for instance that testosterone is a terrible thing.

Of course I don't mean characters can't have biases . . . or lots of testosterone or estrogen (both sexes thrive on both) . . . or bigotry to the point of evil. Where's the fun then?

History is certainly full of female spies. I think the nitch could be filled by good writing.

IMO part of the problem is the very high standards set by (mostly) English and US (a few) writers in the '60s and '70s, during the height of the Cold War. With marvelously complex antagonists (Col. Stok in the early Len Deighton books, any of LeCarre's or Adam Hall's bad guyss), they established the genre and they've been been tough to beat. Even a few of the early Bond books are pretty good, but they went downhill in a hurry when Hollywood took over.

These days, the bogeyman is the terrorist and he's not nearly as interesting. Of course, it's very satisfying when they get their just desserts, but religious idiocy just doesn't lend itself to complex character development.

Obviously, guys don't have the brains for this, occupied as they are with sex and guns. So...jeseymour, kaitie, get with it.

Well... while someone like Bond can be smart, capable, and very attractive to the opposite sex, I'm going to argue that readers tend not to accept a woman who is all of these. She can be smart, but has to be clumsy or plain or otherwise not hot. If she's hot, then the only thing she knows how to do successfully is use her assets-- and she certainly won't have a brain in the pretty head. I've run into plenty of women readers who were turned off by my female character because she "had it all" (or other variations)-- brains, sex appeal, and fists she could use. Male readers, however, enjoyed the combo...

Anyway, we're a long way from a female Bond, I think.

As for more female-lead espionage, I think it's still a market thing. Too many (imho) books by females with female leads devolve into romance, thus taking them out of the running for really being a female-lead espionage (or whatever else). They become softer books and less action oriented, in general.

Clair,
Bo Fexler sounds just the kind of gal to run across a Chinese industrial espionage ring while on a case and dismantle it just to show she can.

Well... while someone like Bond can be smart, capable, and very attractive to the opposite sex, I'm going to argue that readers tend not to accept a woman who is all of these. She can be smart, but has to be clumsy or plain or otherwise not hot. If she's hot, then the only thing she knows how to do successfully is use her assets-- and she certainly won't have a brain in the pretty head. I've run into plenty of women readers who were turned off by my female character because she "had it all" (or other variations)-- brains, sex appeal, and fists she could use. Male readers, however, enjoyed the combo...

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I have a character like this, but she's a US deputy marshal, not a spy. Holly Hunter has to play her in the movie version. So far, my readers like her.

jeseymour said:

I have a character like this, but she's a US deputy marshal, not a spy. Holly Hunter has to play her in the movie version. So far, my readers like her.

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Holly Hunter now? Or Holly Hunter circa winning the Oscar? Because there's a big difference. Holly Hunter circa winning the Oscar was what guys refer to as "sneaky hot", meaning she wasn't someone you'd automatically think was hot, but if you saw her in a movie, or in person, you'd say, "Damn, forgot about her... yeah!"

Holly Hunter now? Oh God... I didn't order a skeleton with my hippie hair did I? Gag me.

jeseymour said:

I remember watching a program, it may have been Scientific American, about a man and wife spy team. She looked like your typical housewife type, and that probably made her the perfect spy.

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They had a recent case I remember reading about where a husband and wife were charged with being spies for Cuba, and had been for some ridiculously long time. That was fascinating. I don't remember details, but that might be the same one you're talking about.

You can't get more stereotypical than male uniformed cops. Women started working in uniform while I was a lieutenant. At first, I was apprehensive. The women weighed between 120 and 150 pounds. the tallest was 5 feet, nine inches. Many of the people we had to arrest were over 200 pounds and over six feet tall. I worried about the women's safety, but couldn't give them preferential assignments.
What I learned, was that most of the women used methods other than physical force to arrest many larger men. (It didn't work all the time). Women introduced new ways of dealing with people that the men hadn't thought of.
Writers, particularly female writers, can apply different techniques to female MCs, in espionage (or other thriller) situations.

RJK said:

What I learned, was that most of the women used methods other than physical force to arrest many larger men. (It didn't work all the time). Women introduced new ways of dealing with people that the men hadn't thought of.
Writers, particularly female writers, can apply different techniques to female MCs, in espionage (or other thriller) situations.

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He means boobs.

ToddWBush said:

Holly Hunter now? Or Holly Hunter circa winning the Oscar? Because there's a big difference. Holly Hunter circa winning the Oscar was what guys refer to as "sneaky hot", meaning she wasn't someone you'd automatically think was hot, but if you saw her in a movie, or in person, you'd say, "Damn, forgot about her... yeah!"

Holly Hunter now? Oh God... I didn't order a skeleton with my hippie hair did I? Gag me.

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We've been netflixing our way through Saving Grace, and yeah, she's a bit on the thin side in that. Sally would not be quite so thin. And Sally has short red hair. Otherwise...

ToddWBush said:

He means boobs.

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I was thinking of Tasers.

ToddWBush said:

He means boobs.

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::headdesk::

jeseymour said:

I was thinking of Tasers.

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Ah yes. "Tasers." (I'm with Todd.)

I wonder if RJK has hit upon one of the problems - spies in novels, if not in real life, have to be action heroes. Running, punching, fighting, etc. You can wear a tuxedo and be Mr. Suave and still do that stuff. But you can't wear an evening gown and heels, then sprint across rooftops. It's also harder to believe that a woman could physically overpower an East German border guard (or whatever). Like it or not, there is a physical difference between men and women (thank heavens) and that difference does not work to the advantage of women as realistic action heroes. Now, a more psychological spy novel maybe, but at some point the ass-kicking has to happen, no?