Why so many scripts?

jartoon said:

Reading all this, I'm wondering why you all feel that you must write 10 bad scripts before you write one good one. How can you have so many ideas that you are passionate enough to write a feature script about but can't take the time to revise it till its good enough instead of diluting your ideas through 10 bad scripts. Taking all the good points of ten bad scripts must add up to one good one, right?

I am wondering because my experience writing seems to be the exact opposite of what all of you say is not only the norm but the rule. I have written one feature script so far, and so far one of my scripts has been made into a movie (and a damn good movie- premiere in January). This script was "bad" at first, of course, everyone's first script is bad. But I rewrote it 7 times, and by then it was "good". So I guess thats 8 scripts-- Except each one has to be better than the one before it because it builds from the same idea (that if you decided to write a script about it i assume its a good idea).

So why not go this route, building on previous drafts to build one superdraft, instead of diluting your ideas and writing 10 bad scripts?

Not trying to sound cocky or arrogant, just trying to understand.

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I had the same thoughts too about people who said you needed a whole bunch to do good. I thought thewhole notion was ludicrous. Why would doing a whole bunch of scripts make you betterover just doing the same script over and over again until it was flawless? What ive observed is 99 percent of screenwriting is in the tweaking and rewriting. I've actually learned more from stayin away from my work and being objective and then doing a major rewrite then I did from writing 3 of my scripts in a row. And the scripts were lame either because none of htem have i had to change the logline, they are all fine, but where I learned so much is in the rewriting. Thats hwere I had to make character personality changes, make dialogue changes, add or drop scenes that were lame or unimportant or took away from the story instead of adding to it.

Congrats on the sale and on the film being made.

I've heard the "You must write X scripts..." quote before. Here's my theory. When most folks take up screenwriting, they're not just learning to write a screenplay -- they're learning to write a story for the first time. Their first shot may not be good enough. But it's taught them something, it's got them started on the learning curve. As they learn and improve as writers and storytellers, it's entirely possible that they may think up better stories. The reason why a brand new screenwriter "must write X scripts" is simply to improve his or her craft.

I write in several genres, mainly because these are the genres I like. In theory this gives me several chances of matching a script with a company's wants and needs when they request a certain type of screenplay.

For these reasons I can't see that there's anything wrong with writing more than one screenplay, any more than there's anything wrong with writing more than one novel. The more you write the better you become, at least in theory; and the more variety you write, the better your chances of selling.

Whew, too many theories! But the more I consider your question, the more I wonder why anyone would ask such a thing. Don't you have any more stories you want to write? Are you a one-shot wonder?

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

Aside from writing scripts, I'm also a pencil artist. As such, I have a number of sketch pads. Three or four are for nothing but doodles, exercises I perform to loosen up the wrist and fingers, that kind of thing. Two are for my "real" artwork - the stuff I actually show people.

To be a good artist you have to practice, practice, practice. Practice is about perfecting your skills, drawing that one shape you can't quite nail over and over until you finally get it right. Practice is that search for what you consider your best. However, by its very nature, practice is not your best.

In this way, I liken screenwriting to being a pencil artist. You're going to go through a number of screenplays during your learning process. You're going to burn through pages which, once you've reached a level of ability, you'll look back on and think, "Wow, that's horrible...I'm so much better at this now." Because all those previous scripts you wrote before you knew what the hell you were doing were bad scripts. But the good thing about all those bad scripts is that they made you capable of writing a better one. Ya dig?

To answer your question I don't think you have to write 10 scripts before you can come up with a good one, especially if you have already worked very hard at story telling. I started out writing novels, first one when I was 12 second one when I was 17. I look back on both and yes they needed massive work. The one I wrote at 17 ended up being split into a series and went through massive re-writing and revision and still needs further revision in my opinion. Now having 4 novels finished I find I have much less revision to do. Now taking up scripts seems a lot simpler and faster process for me after typing out over 1500 pages on those four novels, not to mention all the WIP's I have worked on which add up to another 500 pages. So I think all forms of writing increases our ability and makes for less rewriting the further we go along but I see no reason to discard those first finished pieces unless nothing in them works and it would be faster and easier to just write a new one.

The ten script rule is one of great wonder and amusement. Here's my take on it.

Of course the more you write the better you get, but what if you have natural ability or a concept that is so compelling right from the get go?

Of course there are the few people who sell their first script, but the norm is that it takes years to develop that talent to a tangible form.

Of course a script may sell quickly, but the odds are it will take a year or more to promote it to producers and agents until one may fall in love with it. What do you do in the meantime? Write more scripts-- of course.

Ten scripts should take a person a minimum of four to five years to write for a new writer.

Oddly enough, that is about how long it takes for a writer to become recongnised in the industry and seel his first script. Not so much because the last script he wrote was better, but because that's how long it takes to get a break.

The guy that wrote Haunted Mansion, sold one of his first scripts, Elf, written almost a decade earlier. He spent a year or so trying to sell it back then and almost had a bite, but later, when he because "hot" sold it easily.

So...

It takes, on avarage, years to sell a script.
It takes, on avarage, years to get good at what you do.
And if your lucky and hold out long enough, you'll sell one.
And when you do, you'll most likely have 9 other scripts to show around as well.

So it sounds like luck and timing is just as equitable in the equation as a good script.

Some of us have to work harder at our dreams than others, or maybe we're just honest with ourselves and realize our "great" idea just isn't good enough.
I've started many scripts, all of which I was extremely passionate about and all of which I learned a great deal from. I'm ashamed to say I have never finished a script, but when I look back at my first attempt I have to laugh because it is utterly the worst thing ever written in the history of mankind. The point is, though I've never finished anything, I've learned so much just from writing. Someday I will get to that blessed moment, but I'm not in any hurry. I'd rather take my time and learn everything there is to know. If some people have to write 10 scripts to get there, the better they will be. If someone chooses to spend more time on that one great idea they have, more power to them. Everyone is different.

Steph

Stephanie76 said:

Some of us have to work harder at our dreams than others, or maybe we're just honest with ourselves and realize our "great" idea just isn't good enough.
I've started many scripts, all of which I was extremely passionate about and all of which I learned a great deal from. I'm ashamed to say I have never finished a script, but when I look back at my first attempt I have to laugh because it is utterly the worst thing ever written in the history of mankind. The point is, though I've never finished anything, I've learned so much just from writing. Someday I will get to that blessed moment, but I'm not in any hurry. I'd rather take my time and learn everything there is to know. If some people have to write 10 scripts to get there, the better they will be. If someone chooses to spend more time on that one great idea they have, more power to them. Everyone is different.

Steph

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I don't know how you do it. I'd rather finish a script and rewrite the thing over and over then do 5 unfinished scripts.

GBF,

Of course it's always best to actually finish the scripts. Unfinished scripts our definitely a bad thing, a very very bad thing.

I tell myself that everyday.

My point is, that I'm still getting started, I have much to learn and right now I'm just feeling around trying to get a good clean grasp on things. It may take twenty unfinished scripts before I actually finish one, just like it might take someone else ten full scripts to get to that really great one. We all have our own time frame on things, some run some walk, others get in their car and race for the finish line. I'm a walker.

Slow and steady wins the race.

Steph

A better question might be, Jartoon, why do some write script after horrible script yet continue to believe that they have any modicum of talent or hope of success in this industry/medium?

Personally, I think this is the exact reason why many great scripts will be nothing more than an unsold screenplay.

Because Hollywood is a business, and as a business, you must be competitive, and keep trying to write the next big thing, the next hot commodity, and this waters down the industry because there's so much crap circulating everywhere.

As usual, I intend no disrespect to anyone out there, but SOME (not all) of these people who sit and write screenplay after screenplay, don't do it because they love the story they are writing. I think they're more in love with the small possibility of cashing in on that fat paycheck. Others are in love with the possibility of swelling up their ego if they create a hit movie.

Obviously some people make a living doing this, so they have no choice but to pump out script after script, which I completely understand.

Regardless, in doing this, some screenwriters flood the industry with horrible movies and scripts. As if that wasn't bad enough, some of these movies are hyped with fake critic reveiws, trailers that are much better than the movie itself, and pretty much any other form of advertising that will get you and your hot date in the theater to watch their horrible excuse for a movie.

Personally, I write because I want to tell a story. Would I mind getting rich off of it? No, but I'l never write script after script just to cash in, because frankly, I don't have that many stories to tell that I'm 100% passionate about.

I find myself in the same boat as Stephanie, where I've yet to complete a script. Technically I'm still working on my first one, but I never force it. When I'm stuck, I stop and take a break. I don't ever feel the need to complete it for the sake of a deadline. In a sense it's already completed, as I know the ending. But as for the meaty portions in the middle, I'll add those day by day, week by week, month by month, whatever it may be until I'm satisifed with the end result.

Optimus said:

A better question might be, Jartoon, why do some write script after horrible script yet continue to believe that they have any modicum of talent or hope of success in this industry/medium?

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Because I don't know they're horrible and didn't realize I have no modicum of talent or hope of success. Why else?

You ask the daftest questions sometimes.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

Why do some write script after horrible script yet continue to believe that they have any modicum of talent or hope of success in this industry/medium ?

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If you build car after car, you'll figure out that you don't have any modicum of talent or hope of success, because the cars won't go.

You'll have a way to measure.

But when the good scripts don't get made either, how you can you tell if your script (which won't get made) is any good?

When Peter Briggs wrote 'Alien .v. Predator' on his Amstrad computer, there would have been a score of people to tell him that it was a waste of time - but it got bought anyway. Who could have predicted that ?

And as someone who saw Peter Jackson's early movies - I would never have predicted that someone making zombie flicks on an obscure pacific Island would have ever been the success that he is today. Who could have predicted that ?

And of course, we are morally obliged to link to
http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html - the study which won an Ig-Nobel award in 2000 (Psychology) for showing that in some fields, incompetent people are fundamentally unable to know that they are incompetent.

(eg: If you have trouble spelling, then you are also going to have trouble telling if a word is spelt correctly. Hence, you might be blissfully unaware that you can't spell.)

Mind you, I've always been partial to the 2000 IgNobel award for Chemistry - which showed that biochemically, romantic love is indistinguishable from having severe obsessive-compulsive disorder.

I tried to explain that to my girlfriend.
The couch isn't as comfortable as it looks.

Mac

Mac H. said:

If you build car after car, you'll figure out that you don't have any modicum of talent or hope of success, because the cars won't go.

You'll have a way to measure.

But when the good scripts don't get made either, how you can you tell if your script (which won't get made) is any good?

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True. But I'm talking about those who continue to get feedback from fellow writers telling them they need massive improvements, and they work for years and never "get it;" they never improve. Sort of like when one works on a car, and someone who's been working on cars for years tells them that their piston firing sequence is wrong, their vacuum system isn't sealed properly, etc., then point out a better way to do it, yet the person persists on doing it wrong.

Like 99% of people out there writing.

When Peter Briggs wrote 'Alien .v. Predator' on his Amstrad computer, there would have been a score of people to tell him that it was a waste of time - but it got bought anyway. Who could have predicted that ?

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Well, considering that both Alien and Predator were already hugely successful movie franchises, and the "Alien Vs. Predator" comic book series was also already hugely popular among dark comic fans, it's a no-brainer to realize that a script based on a concept that already has a very large built-in fan base would sell.

However, I don't think anyone was predicting that the story he wrote, and thus, the movie, would suck as much as it did.

And as someone who saw Peter Jackson's early movies - I would never have predicted that someone making zombie flicks on an obscure pacific Island would have ever been the success that he is today. Who could have predicted that ?

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Indeed, but you will concede that he already had some success, however small. But, though his movies early movies are cheesy, some are directed rather well.

And of course, we are morally obliged to link to
http://www.phule.net/mirrors/unskilled-and-unaware.html - the study which won an Ig-Nobel award in 2000 (Psychology) for showing that in some fields, incompetent people are fundamentally unable to know that they are incompetent.

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I actually have that study saved in my hard drive because I found it so hilarious, yet so telling, when I first read it in The Journal of Personality and Social Psychology. Funny stuff. There have been a small number of other studies which have expanded upon that study, and found that the "unconscious incompetence" (as Maslow coined it decades ago) of people extends to several areas of the person's life, and may be related to a distorted perception of self-efficacy.

Sorry, I went off on a psychologist dork tangent again. I study this stuff, so I get carried away sometimes.

I also have the counterpoint to that study, called, "Why Smart People Can Be So Foolish" by Robert J. Sternberg which explores why supposedly intelligent people can do really stupid things. It's very recent, as it was published less than a year ago.

I don't have a public-access link to the article, but if anyone wants to look it up, here's the citation:

European Psychologist, Vol. 9, No. 3, September 2004, pp. 145–150

Mind you, I've always been partial to the 2000 IgNobel award for Chemistry - which showed that biochemically, romantic love is indistinguishable from having severe obsessive-compulsive disorder.

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That study/theory is actually under some scrutiny now, as feelings of romantic love trigger the release of Oxytocin (a recent discovery), but OCD does not. However, it's very fascinating stuff.


However, rounding out this psycho-screenwriting discussion, I truly believe that self-handicapping delusion plays a vital role in sustaining the severely untalented person's drive to continue writing.

skip 'creative writing' and take 'psychology'. i believe that mostly because i said it and it coincidentally happens to be true.

isn't oxycotin also the chemical released that bonds mothers to their spawn, the lack of which could cause the extreme munchausen's syndrome by proxy?

because people have been told all their lives they have a gift ('you're special!'.... no, you're not, quit lying to yourself and get my fries), they have to hold on to the dream that at least they *could* have been something were it not for society/education/money/spouses/children/jobs/blonde hair/prejudice/fast food/saturn being in venus' third house, rather than admit they have no appreciable value other than being a tax-paying mouth breather. ya gotta have a dream to stay sane, eh? even an unrealistic one is better than the truth.

enter writing. if you fail, you can always claim that it's a tough nut to crack and rest assured it's not your fault 'booberella vs. mega-goliathon' didn't get picked up, it's 'someone' else's fault.

what boggles my mind is there's virtually a formula for any kind of story you want to write. cheap horror? ever hear of vampires? romantic comedy? pattern it off any j. blo movie. drama? a little trickier, sure, often requiring actual talent on some level. action/adventure? pick a setting and a character and it writes itself.

completely worthless as a writer? what the hell do you think they invented journalism and critics for? besides, computer programmes now spit out outlines, all you have to do fill in the blanks and flesh it out. come on, hardly rocket surgery. get a how-to-write-like-everyone-else book and just do what they say.

*STILL* can't get published after submitting fifty stories? damn, what's the problem? maybe you just suck and should convince yourself you're good at something else instead. there's no shame in being the best burger-flipper. indeed, wait long enough and there will probably be a 'fast food challenge' on the food network. yeah, it's hollywood's fault for not at least optioning your script because, get this, *it was too good.*

wait for it....

bwahahahahahahaha!

at some point a person has to admit they don't have what it takes to make in an industry despite how much they want to. personally, i'd love to be lead guitarist for the best rock band the world has even seen. ain't gonna happen. assuming i was any good, i worked hard enough and got a few breaks, i might have been an average guitarist who happened to be involved in a few minour hits. that's also assuming i followed the formula for the most part, not that i'd ever have been mentioned with jimmy page or pete townsend in the same breath, you know, people with talent.

i imagine writing attracts a lot of people without a clue as to their own abilities. musicians get taken out relatively quickly by comparison, though it wouldn't surprise me if the same ratio of deluded wannabes holds true, either. at least playing an instrument takes some ability, even if it is purely mechanical, while 'everyone has a novel in them.' true, probably everyone does have a novel. doesn't mean it's worth reading, but it's there because 'you're special and have something different and important to say.'

i think writing attracts the untalented because it's a wide open 'intellectual' field where it's hard to quantify yourself. somewhere in that murky morass there's a veil to hide behind. i mean, everyone's got ideas, therefore everyone can be a writer, right? most every idea has a formula to fit. i call it a formula, others call it 'craft.'

so, if you know the craft and still can't get things accomplished after so many years of desperate trial, there must be something to that talent thing, eh? honestly, you may be the one who slips through the cracks, but publishers and studios will buy a good story, well-done, and fitting their purposes at that time, or if not at that time ten years down the road. if so much 'crap' is being bought and they pass on you time and time again, what's that say? lol. maybe you should start writing crap just to get inside the door and everything will fall into place.

how do you discourage the delusioned? probably the worst thing you could ever do is actually buy something from them, then they're hooked for life. i wonder how many people have had their middling manuscript or script bought just to fritter their lives away trying to write more that are never so good? there's probably a story in that. besides, i mean, 'adaptation,' which was just not very entertaining nor reached a cinematic depth to be an interesting character study except to critics who are failed writers themselves. that's just my opinion of that movie, i know some who loved it.

I wrote 7 first drafts because I had a lot of stories I wanted to write. Since then I've gotten a lot of feedback on my 3 best ones, which I've rewritten and I am rewriting to put on the market.

After I do a lot of work on a script (rewrite), I want to leave it alone for awhile and I go to the next script.

For those of you who can't finish script, stop worrying about your work being bad. FINISH the script.

If you want to be a professional screenwriter, realize a big part of being a working writer is taking writing assignments. As Joe said, you'll be expected to write a draft in a month's time. If you end up getting tv writing assignments, I think they give you a week or two.

I know a lot of people who want to be writers, but cannot just sit down and make sure they FINISH a draft.

"Regardless, in doing this, some screenwriters flood the industry with horrible movies and scripts. As if that wasn't bad enough, some of these movies are hyped with fake critic reveiws, trailers that are much better than the movie itself, and pretty much any other form of advertising that will get you and your hot date in the theater to watch their horrible excuse for a movie."

Dude, these screenwriter you accuse of flooding the world with bad movies are doing what most of us here aren't doing. They're getting paid for their screenplays or screenwriting abilities. If their scripts were so bad, they never would have gotten sold or been produced.

I've been reading a lot of scripts on Zoetrope and Triggerstreet lately. There are some really good scripts out there. All of the ones that were lacking could be fixed, if the writer was willing to. The ones that lacking usually have issues with pacing, structure, character, dialouge, or poor formatting.

"True. But I'm talking about those who continue to get feedback from fellow writers telling them they need massive improvements, and they work for years and never "get it;" they never improve. Sort of like when one works on a car, and someone who's been working on cars for years tells them that their piston firing sequence is wrong, their vacuum system isn't sealed properly, etc., then point out a better way to do it, yet the person persists on doing it wrong."

This is a problem with those who call themselves writers. Some people will shut down the instant they hear any criticism, no matter how constructive.

Optimus said:

Well, considering that both Alien and Predator were already hugely successful movie franchises, and the "Alien Vs. Predator" comic book series was also already hugely popular among dark comic fans, it's a no-brainer to realize that a script based on a concept that already has a very large built-in fan base would sell.

However, I don't think anyone was predicting that the story he wrote, and thus, the movie, would suck as much as it did.

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In defence of Peter Briggs, the story you saw on the screen was NOT the story he wrote.

Peter's script is here: http://www.allmoviescripts.com/scripts/3087769533f69f1e146d02.txt
If you read it, remember that it was written before 'Beavis and Butthead'. I don't think anyone would now consider making a woman with the name 'BEAUVAIS' as a romantic lead ...

And I was commenting more on the insanity of writing a spec script on somebody else's characters - which is normally a really, really dumb idea.

In an interview, he mentioned that he did it because he figured his first script wouldn't sell anyway, but it would get him noticed.

Mac

I guess it goes along this line of reasoning: Say a guy wants to be a painter, but he spends all his time perfecting the painting of a single type of landscape, like mountains. Sure, he can now paint mountains to the best of his ability, but he may not be so skilled in the painting of other types of landscapes.