Military Question

I just can't imagine such a scenario. Which probably means I wouldn't believe it. Different if there were no official recruitment -- if the "welcome" was more along the lines of, "Congratulations, you've just become an honorary member of the U.S. Air Force. Take this gun and shoot them."

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

A TRUE STORY

fedorable1 said:

Hey, everyone.

I have a question regarding something in my latest screenplay.

In it, there is a Major General in the Air Force who recruits somebody "on the spot" while under siege. (WHAT?) It's similar to the old Western joke of "Congratulations, you've just been deputized. Good luck."

What I want to know is, would such a high-ranking official have the power to recuit (RECRUIT MEANS YOU ASK, NICELY. FLAG OFFICERS DON'T ASK; THEY ORDER) someone directly, and therefore provide them with munitions (LIKE A TOMCAT?) until reinforcements arrived - or would it still require the proper channels and whatnot?

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A true story: I was once in a non-military, military type organization (don't ask) where we were all in the reserve, but not on active duty. e.g. - we were civilians. It happened in Florida, at Tindell AFB during a rather difficult period of history.

There was a little problem with the 101st Airborne Division's G-2 unit - they all came down with the mumps! Anyway, this three-star walked in unannounced, looked us over and declared, "You men will do," and ordered us to get in uniform (and get haircuts, and sober up, and get rid of the girls).

The boss, a reserve major, told him, "But, sir, my men aren't on active duty and, besides, none of us are jump qualified."

By golly, in one hour we were! And the star sent the MPs over to give us the good news. On my military record I'm jump qualified, but I've never, drunk or sober, to my knowledge, stepped out of an airplane when it was in the air.

Now, do you really want to ask if a flag officer can do anything he wants?

In times of war a two star (USAF Major general) would have the authority to reinstate a retired soldier to active duty. Sure, paperwork would be needed but more a formality, unless the general is way off base for doing so.

As for drafting on the spot civilians, tough call.

Unless there is an active draft system in place I doubt it would fly, but if you can present it as a necessity (no other choice under the circumstances), it would make for good drama and sometimes that's more important that the truth.

Technically

Joe Calabrese said:

In times of war a two star (USAF Major general) would have the authority to reinstate a retired soldier to active duty. TRUE. Sure, paperwork would be needed but more a formality, unless the general is way off base for doing so. FLAG OFFICERS ARE NEVER OFF BASE. THAT'S WHAT 2ND LIEUTENANTS ARE FOR.

As for drafting on the spot civilians, tough call. ACTUALLY, JOE, THEY CAN, AND HAVE DONE IT. ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND AND SWEAR - EITHER THAT YOU'LL GO OUT AND ON REQUEST, SHOOT PEOPLE - OR AT THE MPs IN BACK OF YOU HOLDING GUNS! EITHER WAY, YOU'RE INSTANTLY IN THE ARMY. THE DRAFT IS NO LONGER BUT THERE'S A LAW STILL ON THE BOOKS THAT SAYS ANY MALE EIGHTEEN OR OLDER, OWES SIX YEARS (TOTAL) OF MILITARY SERVICE, AND MORE, IF IT'S FOR THE GOOD OF THE SERVICE.

Unless there is an active draft system in place I doubt it would fly, but if you can present it as a necessity (no other choice under the circumstances), it would make for good drama and sometimes that's more important that the truth.

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The message says this is too short. So....

Sounds like a movie not a novel and it sounds like comedy potential, therefore I'd go for it.

To my knowledge, having served in the armed forces and been in combat:

Technically speaking, no. It doesn't matter how high-ranking a military official is, he does not have the authority to "deputize" a private citizen into the military. Be it against the person's will (which would be deemed unconstitutional) or if the person's all for it (there is still the swearing in, the qualification/ASVAB testing processes, the MEP tests, etc.), the only person who may be called into duty who is NOT already a soldier is a retired/ETS'ed soldier, and even then it's only allowable up to a certain age, and depending on how long they've been on inactive duty.

For example:

In the Army, which I was in, you are automatically enlisted for eight years. You will spend x amount of years on active duty. After those three years I ETS'ed (out-processed) and spent the remaining five years of my enlistment on inactive duty, which means I came home and went about life as usual as a civilian.

During those five years, however, I could have been called back in at any time. I'd have been given the military equivalent of "refreshment" training and rotated back into active duty until I was no longer needed, at which case I would have out-processed again and returned to inactive "civilian" life for the remainder of my inactive duty time. After that period of inactive duty was up, I still could have been (but was less likely to have been) called back into duty, unless I was 35 years old or older (Army enlistment's cut-off age for a new recruit). I'm pushing 34 right now and haven't been called back in, so I don't see it happening for me any time soon.

Now...if your script operates on a realistic basis, forget about a General recruiting a civilian directly into combat. It does not, and never will, work like that. However...I don't see a problem if you decided that your civilian character, of his own accord, volunteered to assist. But even then, he's still a private citizen and does not have the freedoms of combat (how's that for an oxymoron) that an enlisted soldier would. Forget what you've seen in the movies. He would not be made privy to any confidential information (the military's confidentiality clauses have three tiers; "confidential", "secret" and "top secret") and he would not be considered part of any team, squad, platoon, company, unit or division. He'd basically be the equivalent of a regular guy the police give permission to go on a ride-along.

But if you want to get absolutely downright technical, during a siege civilians are treated as POW's; which means, in conjunction with the Geneva Convention, the military's primary concern would be the safety and sequestering of private citizens and the minimalization of risk to their persons. Recruiting them on the spot and handing them over a weapon is an antithesis to this.

You know what I say. Make it a damn fantasy. Bend the rules. I like the premise. I say go for it. If you have a passionate idea about it, then it will show in your work.

I have an idea, have the president in the opening scene sign new legislation or the T.V on talking about how the military changed it's rules and the supreme court agreed or something like that. That will cover it then since you won't have to worry about it being a fantasy or not.

Yeah, but.

A major general usually commands a division, a lieutenant general, usually a force consisting of a number of divisions. When either are in command in a combat situation they seldom consider how the rules lay out within their command. What they want to do is win. They'd deputize their mothers, rules or no rules, if they felt that it would gain them the upper hand. If a general did not have those leanings he/she should not be a general.

You've got it a bit backwards. A LT General is of lower rank than a Major General, and would have command of a single division; a Major General would have command of more. And, they DO indeed take the rules into consideration. Every soldier who swears in is sworn to abide by the Geneva Convention; it's more of a raison d'etre than actually fighting during combat. And if a General had the leanings to recruit civilians into combat and thus jeopardize their lives, he most definitely should NOT be a general.

For the purpose of answering the original question, Infracting upon a civilian's rights during a military exercise is considered a war crime, and they would be court martialed faster than you can say "A Few Good Men." And, the higher up the ladder you go, the less likely you would be to jeopardize your military career. Lieutenant General, Brigadeer General, Major General, General of the Army, what have you -- you get there by being a good soldier, not by bending the rules.

Not trying to argue or raise a fuss, by the way. The question was asked, "Would a high ranking military general have the power to recruit a civilian directly into combat?" The answer is no, he wouldn't -- and he wouldn't consider it. He'd be much more concerned with keeping that civilian out of harm's way, not putting him directly into it.

Boo_Radley said:

You've got it a bit backwards. A LT General is of lower rank than a Major General, and would have command of a single division; a Major General would have command of more. .

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I hate to disagree, Boo, because you are dead right on everything else. But a Lt General is indeed senior to a Major General. A LTG wears three stars, a MG two.

All of which is beside the point. The answer to the original question is NO, NEVER. Military officers have zero authority to act as "press gangs" and take civilians into the force. Could it happen in a comedy? Sure, but it would take such a huge suspension of disbelief as to be counterproductive. Also really irritating to military, former military, or retired military folks in your audience, who grow extremely tired of seeing military reality twisted totally out of shape, even in fiction.

I base my comments of 30+ years of Army service.

All the U.S. services, i.e., Army, Air Force, and USMC, are the same. Officer ranks, in ascending order: 2d Lt, 1st Lt, Captain, Major, Lieutenant Colonel, Colonel, Brigadier General, Major General, Lieutenant General, and General. Five star Generals of the Army have only been authorized during WWII and shortly thereafter. I believe Omar Bradley was the last one - he died a few years back.

Navy and Coast Guard are the same, but with different actual titles.

Whatta bet?

fedorable1 said:

Thanks for the help, I appreciate it. However, I did read the following:



Both the USAF and RAF websites concur. I think I got it right the first time.

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Ancient Eagle and this old spook'll take a piece of that action. Right, AE?

It goes:
2nd Lieutenant - one gold bar (to aid in toilet training)
1st Lieutenant - one silver bar
Captain - railroad tracks
Major - oak leaf
Lieutenant Col. - silver oak leaf
Col. - eagle (a/k/a A bird colonel or full bird)
BG - one star
Major General - two stars
Lieutenant General - three stars
General - four stars
General of the Army - five stars

The Navy? Ah, hell. They got it all messed up. A captain is a colonel or he commands a boat, in which case he could be an ensign. A lieutenant is a captain. Something. I never did get them straight.

And there was one six star general, I believe Pershing, so he could be equal to all the French generals that signed the treaty, ending WW I. They later demoted him, back to a mere five stars.

OMG, I just said there is away around the military rules, Hell if the president pacts the court with goofballs in time of war that would make it funnier.


Besides, I already wrote the synopsis and sent it out to a couple producers I know, so you're arguing for nothing.





















J/K

GonnaBeFamous said:

OMG, I just said there is away around the military rules, Hell if the president pacts the court with goofballs in time of war that would make it funnier.


Besides, I already wrote the synopsis and sent it out to a couple producers I know, so you're arguing for nothing.


















J/K

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Arguing? You asked a question. Nobody said you had to listen to the answer. But when you close the sale, there are several of us who will expect a percentage for all the good advice we gave you. Just list us as script consultants.

AncientEagle said:

Arguing? You asked a question. Nobody said you had to listen to the answer. But when you close the sale, there are several of us who will expect a percentage for all the good advice we gave you. Just list us as script consultants.

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ROFLMAO, I'm not the thread starter.

GBF.
Don't make trouble. I got my eye on you.

AncientEagle said:

I hate to disagree, Boo, because you are dead right on everything else. But a Lt General is indeed senior to a Major General. A LTG wears three stars, a MG two.

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Well, crap. It seems I got my p's and q's backwards. Thanks for the correction, Eagle.

NO

NO, as an ex-military officer, I can tell you that there are many cases where this might be necessary but, it is highly illegal. There are some cases where a officer can join a fighting force of a foriegn or domestic country e.g a revolutionary war era militia. The only entity that can force service upon civilians is a unified congress.

Simply put, if the civilian is against the "enlistment," then I don't care if he's a 2LT or Mr Bush himself, you can tell him to go stick it up his you know what. No one can be singled out. If it's a draft on the other hand, then it'd be different, but they'd still have to go through proper channels.

On a different note, I've known some civilian interrogaters who had full bird colonel insignia pinned on their cammies by a higher ranking officer in order to instill more fear in the terrorists or unknowing lower ranking officers/enlisted.

After all, if you see something shiny, you salute and reply with Sir. You don't ask for the officer's OQR to see if his documentation is all there.

What I want to know is, would such a high-ranking official have the power to recuit someone directly, and therefore provide them with munitions until reinforcements arrived - or would it still require the proper channels and whatnot

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As a viewer, I'd be more interested in whether it is BELIEVABLE that the official did it.

One method would be to have a nay-sayer who voices my concerns on the screen, and has the motivations explained. eg:
Underling: You can't do that. It's illegal. You'll get court martialed when we get back.
Official: That's what I'm hoping for. That we all live long enough for me to get court martialled...

(Ok, klunky. But you get the general gist)

Another way would be to tone it down, so our hero is never officially 'in', but he's just told to stay there with the weapons but he's NOT allowed to fire them. But as things get worse ..

Another option (in a comedy) would be to play it for laughs:
Underling: You can't just deputise him like that. You're just sending him out to be killed.
Official: Isn't there a loop hole in the rules somewhere ?
Underling: Of course not. It goes against the very foundation of democracy.
Official: Ok, you win. Looks like you'll be going on the suicide mission instead.
Underling: Oh look, I found a loophole.

On the other hand, you could make the hero a geek who got a military scholarship to college - and has just discovered the 'fine print' in the contract...

Mac