Gender equality in fantasy

efreysson · Nov 8, 2009

I'm not really smart or eloquent enough to post some stunning insight into gender-subjects, but while working on my own WIP fantasy series I started wondering how the rest of you handle this. (I'm a guy, for the record)

Do you find it annoyingly 'unrealistic' to see a medieval-esque fantasy with women as more-or-less equal to men, socially and career-wise?

Or do you create a world with a totally modern-day sensibility about this stuff, without any detailed reason for why things are so different in the fantasy world? Or do you indeed make up a detailed reason?

Personally, I find real-life sexism so irritating I simply have no interest in covering it, and also find it really restrictive to the kinds of stories I tell. So I mostly try to make things as equal as I feel a world with very little social care can be.
And I don't bring it up in the stories, but how I 'justify' this in the backstory, is that a woman rose as humanity's leader and savior after a great calamity a thousand years ago, founded a nation with the survivors, and has come to be revered all over the remains of the world as a pseudo-religious figure. Also, in the centuries that followed, humanity was hard pressed by armies of demons and the undead, and often needed every able body to pick up a sword and fight on the front lines, with child-rearing mostly left to the elderly.

Those days have (apparently) passed now in my world, and society is gradually changing in various ways, but there is still no legal or social assumption of a man's opinion on things being worth more than a woman's. Though there are of course individual variations.

So . . . what about the rest of you?

Mr Flibble · Nov 8, 2009

Thing is - if it's your world, it's your rules. If there is a reason for this equality ( even if it's never stated in the book) it shouldn't be a problem

If someone says 'Oh, well it wasn't like that in mediaeval Europe', imo your ultimate comeback is 'It isn't IN mediaeval Europe'

It should whoever be both consistent and believable in the context of your world.

Do you find it annoyingly 'unrealistic' to see a medieval-esque fantasy with women as more-or-less equal to men, socially and career-wise?

I have done so. For various reasons in the past of the society ( a rather turbulent past, where a lot of the men were killed, leaving the women to pick up the pieces, so while the men nominally are in charge they accept that women have an equal say in most households), it is perfectly acceptable for women to join the army, for instance, although not many do. It's unusual, but not something to raise eyebrows over, if you see what I mean. The only gender inequality is for the kingship - must be a guy, more because of tradition than anything. Howver this is never actually mentioned in the story - it just is.

Different realms have different views on equality and the different genders, and differ in their attitudes accordingly. Which makes for some interesting culture clashes

Being forced to have it just as Western Europe did because 'that's what you're supposed to do' or 'it's unbelievable' are very limiting. It's not this world! It's not history!

Create your own world - and that means creating your own attitudes too.

Rhys Cordelle · Nov 8, 2009

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's generally religious traditions which place women lower than men. If your religious traditions include a goddess rather than a god then the reverse could be true, or it could more easily lead to equality of the sexes.

For my setting, there was something close to gender equality, but now the population has become dangerously small and there is pressure from the crown for women to give up their jobs and focus on child rearing (which is a little hypocritical, given that the queen does not intend to do the same). I have one character that makes me very sad to think of. She is a personal guard to the queen until the queen commands that she will no longer employ women in such roles. The guard is gay, so she has absolutely no intention of letting a man get her pregnant. She ends up doing herself some serious damage in an attempt to render herself unable to have children, hoping that this will mean she can remain in her job. But the queen does not want to set a dangerous prescedent for others to follow, so the woman is not allowed to keep her job anyway.

Judg · Nov 8, 2009

I do not have men and women playing equal roles in society because I seriously can't believe that it is even possible in a world without effective birth control. Or in a society that is still largely powered by muscle. (And incidentally, I think that has a lot more to do with differing roles than religion does.) However, since I have the regrettable tendency of thinking that different doesn't mean inferior, the women still have brains and courage and determination and use all of them, in varying degrees depending on their personal differences. One woman does go on a bit of a bitter tirade on how the supposed equality of women doesn't translate into reality, mind you, which the MC finds rather unsettling and is his first step in learning to think outside of his society's boxes.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 8, 2009

I think it depends a lot on your world--and yes, your world your rules. But even in a medieval context, there's some wiggle room.

For instance: Life for women in ancient Celtic society was still nasty brutish and short--but women could and did own property, with laws specifically dealing with women's rights. Women could and did divorce men, and retain property, and children.

Women could and did fight along men in some ancient cultures--typically, horse cultures, frankly. There are compensations for being of lesser upper-arm strength on horse back; the Tocharians used female cavalry archers, for instance, not commonly, but successfully enough that a number of them were buried with all honor, and have distinct signs of being life-long archers on their bones.

Heck, look at the portrayal of women in the Old Norse/Icelandic sagas!

Rhys Cordelle · Nov 8, 2009

In a fantasy setting you can have effective birth control quite easily. Robert Jordan does it by having them drink an herbal tea.

As for men having the muscle, if a religion teaches that men are best suited to labor, and women are best suited to intellectual pursuits, then you have a situation where there isn't gender equality, but the muscle doesn't dictate who's in charge.

Liosse de Velishaf · Nov 8, 2009

I think that if you have a good reason for women to be equal, there's no issue. But if you have a world that to me seems like men would be more powerful in certain areas and aren't, it would put me off.

This isn't just an issue of how Medieval Europe did it. It's about how everyone did it. In the vast majority of fantasy I've read, there's no reason to suppose women would be equal, even if the author tries to portray them a such.

But gender politics isn't really a concern in the stories I write. If woman happen to be powerful, they are. If not, not. It all depends on how the world develops in my world-building.

ETA: Rhys--I think you're ignoring how those religions got that way in the first place.

efreysson · Nov 8, 2009

Rhys Cordelle said:
In a fantasy setting you can have effective birth control quite easily. Robert Jordan does it by having them drink an herbal tea.

Well, I don't know about creating a fictional contraceptive, but when men and women fought in wars together, on long campaigns, I'm planning a very tolerant mindset of situational homosexuality to keep the libido appeased. And perhaps just popular use of sex acts that don't result in pregnancy.

Mara · Nov 8, 2009

Also, keep in mind that a lot of what we believe about the "historical gender divide" has been questioned by modern historians. A good bit of the older ideas came from older histories (sometimes stuff by aristocratic amateurs who studied "classical civilization" to feel more cultured.)

Recently, historians have sorta figured out, using common sense and actual evidence, that the "put women on a pedastal and never let them do most jobs" thing wasn't feasible for most people. Common women went out and worked, just like common men.

Also, while some religions and cultures used pregnancy and lack of upper body strength as excuses to subjugate women, that wasn't completely true of every religion and culture. There was still some division of labor, of course, but it wasn't as strict as many imagine.

Anyway, fantasy isn't supposed to be realistic, just consistant and interesting. "Realism" isn't an excuse for something that's not interesting, especially when nothing else in the novel is realistic.

Gender divide can be interesting, but it should never be thrown into a novel unquestionably because it's "realistic." It should add something to the story.

efreysson said:
I'm planning a very tolerant mindset of situational homosexuality to keep the libido appeased. And perhaps just popular use of sex acts that don't result in pregnancy.

Both of these have strong historical precedent.

Mr Flibble · Nov 8, 2009

Medievalist said:
Heck, look at the portrayal of women in the Old Norse/Icelandic sagas!

Shh! you're giving away my sources! Especially Freydis. OoooOOOooOOOoh

As for the muscle, yes you won't be as good with a great sword, but there's plenty of other weapons you'd could be as good at including archery

However, my race is a fair bit bigger than their neighbours, and frankly, any woman who can carry a pig under one arm ( the men can carry two lol) can wield a sword

ANd once you get some system - however devised - of birth control, da womenz are ready!

Rhys Cordelle · Nov 8, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
ETA: Rhys--I think you're ignoring how those religions got that way in the first place.

Not at all. Most fantasy settings are medievalesque. By that stage of human development I see religion as the force which holds those primitive "me stronger so me boss" ideals in place. I see no reason why history couldn't have gone down a more gender equal path if, say for example, jesus had promoted it.

In my setting metals are rare and hard to obtain, so no big heavy swords exist. The commonly used weapons are easily weilded by women, and combat is as much to do with speed as it is about power.

Liosse de Velishaf · Nov 8, 2009

Rhys Cordelle said:
Not at all. Most fantasy settings are medievalesque. By that stage of human development I see religion as the force which holds those primitive "me stronger so me boss" ideals in place. I see no reason why history couldn't have gone down a more gender equal path if, say for example, jesus had promoted it.

In my setting metals are rare and hard to obtain, so no big heavy swords exist. The commonly used weapons are easily weilded by women, and combat is as much to do with speed as it is about power.

Hmm... I wonder why Jesus didn't promote women's rights...

Religions in our world are created to explain why things are the way they are. The circumstances come first, the religions second. Now, in a fantasy world with real gods and goddesses, there's no reason why a significantly progressive God couldn't foster equal rights.

Mara · Nov 8, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Hmm... I wonder why Jesus didn't promote women's rights...

Actually, he did, and one of the major reasons that Christianity was more successful than the competing cults was that it allowed upward mobility for women. (Part of this came from Greek culture, which was very female-friendly in some areas.) EDIT: Some of the competing cults were male-only. There were other female-friendly cults, too, but most didn't have the same combination of factors that made Christianity popular. Oh, and for clarity, I'm using "cult" in its non-offensive academic term, not the negative popular usage that means something completely different.

When Christianity became more mainstream and eventually became the official religion of Rome, and Roman leaders converted, the religion started embracing conservative Roman ideas. The Roman elites were not especially pro-woman. (Upper class Roman women had fewer rights than upper class women in other societies, such as Greek society at its height.)

Even in later times, there were important female Christian leaders. Joan D'Arc is a great example. She was eventually executed on pretenses of heresy, but that was completely politically motivated and everyone knew it at the time. (In fact, Christian ideas caused some people to worry they had murdered a saint for political reasons.)

So, yeah, Christianity is pretty complex when it comes to women's rights, like most other religions. (Islam is another great example.) Generalities rarely tell the whole story from a historical perspective. They're just what you get when people try to summarize things for intro classes so that first-year students don't get totally baffled. There's actually a lot of nuance.

Rhys Cordelle · Nov 8, 2009

What sort of things did jesus say that promoted gender equality?

Liosse de Velishaf · Nov 8, 2009

Mara said:
Actually, he did, and one of the major reasons that Christianity was more successful than the competing cults was that it allowed upward mobility for women. (Part of this came from Greek culture, which was very female-friendly in some areas.) EDIT: Some of the competing cults were male-only. There were other female-friendly cults, too, but most didn't have the same combination of factors that made Christianity popular. Oh, and for clarity, I'm using "cult" in its non-offensive academic term, not the negative popular usage that means something completely different.

When Christianity became more mainstream and eventually became the official religion of Rome, and Roman leaders converted, the religion started embracing conservative Roman ideas. The Roman elites were not especially pro-woman. (Upper class Roman women had fewer rights than upper class women in other societies, such as Greek society at its height.)

Even in later times, there were important female Christian leaders. Joan D'Arc is a great example. She was eventually executed on pretenses of heresy, but that was completely politically motivated and everyone knew it at the time. (In fact, Christian ideas caused some people to worry they had murdered a saint for political reasons.)

So, yeah, Christianity is pretty complex when it comes to women's rights, like most other religions. (Islam is another great example.) Generalities rarely tell the whole story from a historical perspective. They're just what you get when people try to summarize things for intro classes so that first-year students don't get totally baffled. There's actually a lot of nuance.

There's a difference between preaching women's rights explicitly and having some more leniency in terms of cult membership.

Also, Joan of Arc may have been executed for (mostly) political reasons, but it was partially justified by appealing to sexist feelings.

mscelina · Nov 8, 2009

There are swords women can use with ease--rapiers, the gladius and sabers, for example. The gladius in particular is more likely to be used in combat (hell,the Roman legions did just fine with a shorter, lighter blade). Not every warrior has to be a berserker with a claymore.

SPMiller · Nov 8, 2009

As others have hinted, the medieval era in Europe was more diverse than many folks realize. Mostly, the stereotypes come from England and France. When you start to look outside those two cultures, you find the diversity you want. Let's not forget there was an entire world out there.

Liosse de Velishaf · Nov 8, 2009

mscelina said:
There are swords women can use with ease--rapiers, the gladius and sabers, for example. The gladius in particular is more likely to be used in combat (hell,the Roman legions did just fine with a shorter, lighter blade). Not every warrior has to be a berserker with a claymore.

Rapiers are only really good for dueling. The gladius works best under certain conditions, and anytime a woman with a gladius meets a man with a longer blade, she is in a very bad position. Now, sabers I could see as a good possibility, provided they fit in the context of the story.

raegan_1 · Nov 8, 2009

I'm not quite sure I would call my world completely equal in gender. There are places where this is true, in-so-far that many things are blind to gender. Politically, there is equality: social titles and such are passed down to the first born, regardless of gender (and this does include the royal family).

The magical 'might' is pretty equally split. My 'head wizard' (title undecided) is a woman. Her predecessor and successor or both males, but that's because of talent and opportunity, not gender.

The military might, or foot soldiers, are comprised mostly of men, though there are exceptions to every rule. This is for those who fight only in muscle, though there are women in the ranks at all stages. I'd say it depends on skill, but it's also matters what sort of social standing of the family of the people involved. The buying of commissions, and such, holds true. (But again, regardless of gender.)

And I have read some very decent books that have magic easier/more accessible to one gender or the other, but I decided to forego that and allow it to be equal opportunity. A wise old crone and a young boy have equal chances at the same spell, no matter what their stations are. (Magic is the great equalizer, I guess.)

mscelina · Nov 8, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Rapiers are only really good for dueling. The gladius works best under certain conditions, and anytime a woman with a gladius meets a man with a longer blade, she is in a very bad position. Now, sabers I could see as a good possibility, provided they fit in the context of the story.

It depends on your worldbuilding, of course. However, the Roman legions encountered countless cultures with longer swords and did just fine. That was kind of my point--that and the fact that a woman could handle a gladius or a saber easily and with great skill. I'd also throw in there that a woman who was trained to bladed weapons from a young age, like young men were, would be able to handle any weapon that was suited to her size.

I built off the legend of the Amazon warriors in the Asphodel series and had them beginning formal training at the age of five. They were the most feared and ferocious nation in that world and rightfully so. In a fantasy world, anything is possible and credible if you give a strong enough motivation for it to be so.

veinglory · Nov 8, 2009

It's fantasy, nothing stops a medieval-style world from having genre equality, or women dominant, or 5 genders, or none. For an example of gender-equal medieval-style fantasy see Fiona Patton.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 8, 2009

mscelina said:
I'd also throw in there that a woman who was trained to bladed weapons from a young age, like young men were, would be able to handle any weapon that was suited to her size.

This was the tack Elizabeth Moon took in the Deed of Paksnarrion, and the approach used by Jo Walton in her non-Arthurian Arthurian books; the Kings Peace and . . . gah, I can't remember.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 8, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
The gladius works best under certain conditions, and anytime a woman with a gladius meets a man with a longer blade, she is in a very bad position.

Well, no, not, for instance, when she's with her cohort in formation.

SPMiller · Nov 8, 2009

Can I also point out that swords, even really big ones, are not heavy? No sword that I can think of from the medieval period exceeded 5-6 lb. They had to be light, or else the swinger would exhaust himself.

Death Wizard · Nov 8, 2009

Women play very strong roles in my series. It's the liberal in me, I guess.

Gender equality in fantasy

efreysson

Closer than ever

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Rhys Cordelle

Judg

DISENCHANTED coming soon

Deleted member 42

Rhys Cordelle

Liosse de Velishaf

efreysson

Closer than ever

Mara

Clever User Title

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

Rhys Cordelle

Liosse de Velishaf

Mara

Clever User Title

Rhys Cordelle

Liosse de Velishaf

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Liosse de Velishaf

raegan_1

Funny, motivated, eccentric.

mscelina

Teh doommobile, drivin' rite by you

veinglory

volitare nequeo

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

SPMiller

Prodigiously Hanged

Death Wizard

Tumhe na koci puujetha