Manuscript Assessment

Save your money for the time being.

See if you can get a beta-reader here on AW!



Hiring an assessor violates "Yog's Law."


Post 10 pages on the "Share Your Work" to see how the opening hits other writers.

Here's an AW thread on MS assessments.

It mentions assessors in Australia and that they're pretty useless.

The only assessor who counts is the acquisitions editor.

Get some feedback and work on the next book!

Listen to GILL!

Ditto the two before me.

Really! There are a thousand or so very good manuscript assessors visiting this forum every day. Snag a few and see what they say.

Recently at a local writer's group that I popped into, the guest speaker for the evening was the owner of a Manuscript Assessment Service and also owner of POD business.

She started her talk with 'no new author will get published in Australia without first having their MS assessed' and 'no new author will be published by traditional publishers in Australia unless they've self-published - just like Matthew Reilly did'. Every person in that room nodded as if they've heard the wisdom before.

At the end of the sales pitch I introduced myself as a new author who landed an agent and traditional publisher without having to go through a manuscript assessment. Her response - 'You're the first I ever heard of. Must have slipped through the cracks.'

There is only a handful of 'legitimate' agents over here and most are closed to submissions at the moment because they have a full book and are getting quality referals from current clients and writing centres, pitch sessions etc. I'm noticing a trend of assessment services popping up more regularly in literature advertising and converstaions amongst those yet to be published.

A Sydney agent blooged on this subject and received an interesting reply from an agent/manuscript assessor - http://callmyagent.blogspot.com/2008/08/assessors-and-agents-reply.html

My thought is that if you can't get the MS polished on your own then you will struggle with the editing process if you land a publisher. Trust me, it can be intense. You need to understand the editing process and professional advice given by up to four editors over months of editing.

Good luck.

JJ

What Gill said. Save your money. Unless, of course, you want to hire me.

A professional manuscript assessment can be very helpful in spotting structural problems and other deficiencies that keep and okay story from being a good story. Picking the right person is the tricky part, someone who will do an honest, professional job and that ideally clicks with your story.

That said, it's best to exhaust your free resources first so you can get the most value for your money if you decide to go that route. A professional assessment an investment, the same as taking a writing course, and you can learn a lot from it that you'll be able to use down the road on future projects.

Nicole

NicoleMD said:

A professional manuscript assessment can be very helpful in spotting structural problems and other deficiencies that keep and okay story from being a good story. Picking the right person is the tricky part, someone who will do an honest, professional job and that ideally clicks with your story.

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First, you can learn to do much of this yourself. There are always areas we can remind blind to as authors, however. If you're lucky, you can find a beta reader who can spot those areas for you and constructively suggest how to fix them.

pinocchio said:

Thanks all. Looks like I've got a definitive answer..

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Well, not quite, pinocchio.

I'd absolutely agree with others here that you should exhaust all the free options before considering going the assessment route - and I'd have to agree these services are expensive.

But I'd also recommend you read the AW thread Gill posted in its entirety. The focus quickly shifts to UK assessment agencies, which even at the time of that thread (2007) were taken seriously by literary agents and publishers. Since that time this is even more the case, and the agency quoted as saying they had no interest in manuscript assessment services (Curtis Brown) now uses at least two of them as literary talent scouts. Victoria Strauss mentions a couple specifically (The Literarary Consultancy and The Writers' Workshop) which I would personally have to recommend.

Because there's at least one thing a top ms assessment service can do for you that a beta reader can't, and it's this:

If they genuinely think your work is marketable, they will pass you on to a good agent with a recommendation - and their recommendations are taken seriously. That's not just 'I heard somewhere' stuff, it's the real deal. If you look at that thread, you'll see it's just what happened to one of our most successful AW published writers - aruna. It also happened to me.

I'm not special. I'm certain sure I could never have landed such a good agent so quickly on my own - if I ever could have done it at all. The Writers' Workshop did it for me. They gave me an excellent editor with several published works in my own genre, and who even wrote in the same format (multiple first POV). She gave me her report (which was very helpful) but also passed me to the company's boss who gave the ms a second read for free. We discussed possible agents, he e-mailed one of them (a very, very, prestigious one), and here's an edited version of her reply which he forwarded fifteen minutes later:

Dear XXX,
>>
>> I am absolutely delighted that it is my turn, and particularly with
>> this one which sounds right up my street. Please do get XXX to
>> send both the glorious sounding novel and XXXXX as
>> soon as possible. I am very much looking forward to reading.
>>
>>

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Being polite? I delivered the ms the next day, and three days later she was my agent.

The novel isn't glorious at all, but the point is that an agent took this service's recommendation very seriously.

How helpful this will be to you I don't know. The Writers' Workshop does take overseas writers and does have good contacts with US agents, but I'm afraid I haven't a clue as to their contacts with Australian ones - though they're very approachable if you want to ask them.

But I felt I should post this anyway, if only because other writers might do a thread-search for discussion of manuscript assessment, and I think it's as well if we give a complete picture. I feel I have been unbelievably lucky in this business, and it would be rather selfish of me to hug my little secret to myself if there's a chance it might help someone else the way it helped me.

Yes, it was expensive. But I believed in the book, I invested in it - and it was the best decision I ever made.

Louise

Are The Writer's Workshop and The Literary Consultancy very expensive?

childeroland said:

Are The Writer's Workshop and The Literary Consultancy very expensive?

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I think so - but then I'm not rich. The cost is perfectly reasonable, given what you're getting - ie maybe as much as two days solid work from a published expert in your field entirely devoted to you (plus the business overheads on top of that). But it's still a lot. I had to decide which of various essentials was most important to me at that time - and plumped for the book. My writing meant more to me than new clothes.

In the end, I saved money too, on all the manuscript submissions I never had to make - but there was no guarantee that would be the case. If they'd liked it, but hadn't thought it quite ready to go to an agent I might have still had to do all that anyway.

However, if you look at the thread Gill posted, you'll see at least one UK publisher who normally wouldn't look at unagented submissions claimed they would actually consider manuscripts that come with a good assessment from a reputable service. In short, the ms service performs some of the same function as an agent - it's a filter for publishers, and suggests anything that gets through is at least worth reading. I have no experience of this system in practice, but it suggests going this route could still open doors even without the personal 'hey, you really have to read this one!' bit. As I say, I don't personally know of anyone who's had this experience, but it's there on the thread.

You can find their rates and lots more up-to-date information than I've got on their websites - TLC and The Writers Workshop.

Good luck either way!

Louise

"Do not seek the treasure!" -- John Turturro, as "Pete" in O Brother, Where Art Thou?

Sooner go for the Nigerian inheritance scam than hire manuscript assessors.

caw

blacbird said:

Sooner go for the Nigerian inheritance scam than hire manuscript assessors.

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Why?
I'm interested.

Swordswoman said:

Because there's at least one thing a top ms assessment service can do for you that a beta reader can't, and it's this:

If they genuinely think your work is marketable, they will pass you on to a good agent with a recommendation - and their recommendations are taken seriously. That's not just 'I heard somewhere' stuff, it's the real deal. If you look at that thread, you'll see it's just what happened to one of our most successful AW published writers - aruna. It also happened to me.

Louise

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I'm thinking it may be a little different in Aus, Louise. I recently discussed this issue with my agent (who is listed as a legitimate agent and is one of the biggest in AUS) and she stated that she paid no attention to manuscript assessment services. Recommendations from assessment services accompanied the MS in the slush pile.

In Aus, there is absolutely no advantage that I'm aware of by going through an assessment service in order to get a step closer to the agent/publisher.

JJ

pinocchio said:

Thanks all. Looks like I've got a definitive answer.
As with most first novels, this one was the site of all my first mistakes as a writer. It's also the one that I'm most bound up in, so the ruthless editor in me has a hard time getting in. I was looking for a MS assessment because I recently had an excellent rejection letter from RH (for a different novel), which gave me a few pages of precise critique. The critique was so spot-on that rewriting the problematic sections was easy and I had that MS picked up by an agent within a month. I was hoping a MS assessment would be an extension of such excellent advice.

But I guess I'll be in the Beta forums (after NaNo) instead.

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A little confused here. You have an agent? An Aussie agent who picked you up after RH rejected the novel?

So a few things stick out here.

If you have an agent there is no need for an assessment service.
You pay your agent in percentage of royaties (no upfront costs) for advice and professional service that should be able to answer the question you're asking.

I'd need some convincing that a legitimate agent picked you up after RH knocked the MS back (the option of submitting to RH has vanished after rejection).

I'm guessing the agent you signed up to also does assessment services. And, she may be asking for upfront costs.

Then again, I may be way off the mark. Who's your agent?

JJ

THE WRITER DOESN'T PAY.


JJ--I love your story about you standing up and telling that asshat about your success. I guess she wanted to SCAM everybody in the room that day. (-;

JJ Cooper said:

I'm thinking it may be a little different in Aus, Louise. I recently discussed this issue with my agent (who is listed as a legitimate agent and is one of the biggest in AUS) and she stated that she paid no attention to manuscript assessment services. Recommendations from assessment services accompanied the MS in the slush pile.

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I think you're right. As Gill points out, that AW thread found nothing at all to recommend the Australian based services of this type (at least at the time). It's also clear there are a lot of scam-operations on the ms-assessment model in the US, and some pretty iffy kickbacks going on everywhere (including, in my opinion, some of the services in the UK).

So, no, I certainly wouldn't recommend these services in a general way. All I know of my own experience is that Victoria is right to single out the UK as a generally different way of doing it, and one that is gaining increasing respectability.

Personally I think it's a pity it has to be this way at all. In the 'olden days', publishers paid people with experience to read their slushpiles, but now there are so many people convinced they can write that editors have to save the money and rely on the agents to be the gatekeepers. But increasingly, agents also can no longer afford to pay qualified people to read 2,000 manuscripts a year of which maybe 3 will be marketable enough to justify adding to a client list - and so in come the assessment services to weed out the chaff for them. All it means in the end is that it's now the authors who pay for their own filtering, because there are so many people who believe themselves capable of writing publishable work that the market is effectively flooded.

I wonder how long it will be before the assessment services are swamped too, and the next step will be to pay someone who can help you get in at an assessment service...

Louise

The agent is already one middleman between writer and publisher, and it's widely agreed that reputable agents don't demand reading fees. Why would we want to add an additional middleman who does charge reading fees?

I'm not putting down legitimate freelance editors. But I'd hate to see it become de rigeur for every writer to have to pay for one in order to get to an agent. I've already spent tens of thousands of dollars writing my books, given how much paid work I could have done in those hours I spent laboring on MSS.

Swordswoman said:

I think so - but then I'm not rich. The cost is perfectly reasonable, given what you're getting - ie maybe as much as two days solid work from a published expert in your field entirely devoted to you (plus the business overheads on top of that). But it's still a lot. I had to decide which of various essentials was most important to me at that time - and plumped for the book. My writing meant more to me than new clothes.

In the end, I saved money too, on all the manuscript submissions I never had to make - but there was no guarantee that would be the case. If they'd liked it, but hadn't thought it quite ready to go to an agent I might have still had to do all that anyway.

However, if you look at the thread Gill posted, you'll see at least one UK publisher who normally wouldn't look at unagented submissions claimed they would actually consider manuscripts that come with a good assessment from a reputable service. In short, the ms service performs some of the same function as an agent - it's a filter for publishers, and suggests anything that gets through is at least worth reading. I have no experience of this system in practice, but it suggests going this route could still open doors even without the personal 'hey, you really have to read this one!' bit. As I say, I don't personally know of anyone who's had this experience, but it's there on the thread.

You can find their rates and lots more up-to-date information than I've got on their websites - TLC and The Writers Workshop.

Good luck either way!

Louise

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Thanks. I already have a coupla fulls out, but if they don't work out, this Hillary Johnson isn't looking too bad to me right now, idk.

Phaeal said:

The agent is already one middleman between writer and publisher, and it's widely agreed that reputable agents don't demand reading fees. Why would we want to add an additional middleman who does charge reading fees?.

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Er...we wouldn't, Phaeal. That's why I said it's a pity.

I don't think any of us are disagreeing on the principles. I'm only saying that not all assessment services are by definition bad or useless, because some writers, even here on AW have actively been helped by them. Valid, no?

There's another point though, which also affects us as writers. While there are many very dodgy advertised 'book doctors', who make vague claims as to unspecified experience in editing, the two services I've mentioned myself are run by experienced published writers, as you'll see if you look at the sites. They're people like Gill, or Uncle Jim, or others at the high end here. What they're effectively doing is being beta readers for money.

Yes, of course, it's much, much better if we can get that service for free, and we've all already agreed that option is the first one to try - but you'll also note that many of those top end writers don't generally beta-read for free. That's not remotely a criticism - they don't do it because they're too busy writing their own books, or for any number of equally good reasons, and it's also unfair to expect it of them.

A writer is a professional, who needs to make a living like anyone else. Some supplement their income by running workshops (much the same thing, actually - and writers pay to attend those). Others teach writing courses in colleges and even give feedback on written work (again, much the same thing). Many of the people working at TLC or WW do these too. Why not? I have friends who are doctors and solicitors. I may well expect them to chuck me a free bit of advice from time to time, just as people like Gill or Uncle Jim do here on the boards - but I would not expect them to sit down for maybe 20 hours and write a full, detailed critique of my novel, discuss it with me afterwards, then maybe go to the trouble of contacting an agent on my behalf. I would expect even less for them to do it for a stranger, and for every stranger who asks.

I don't do professional ms assessment. I do sometimes beta-read for free, though not as much as I'd like. I have a horrid deadline which means I don't have time to do more, but I also have a decent enough income from writing so I don't need to. But I know not all writers can afford to work full time, not even successfully published ones, and I don't grudge them making money this way.

Yes, money flows towards the writer. But in the two outfits I've mentioned, these are writers too...

Louise

ETA - I don't think Hilary Johnson is a writer herself, but she does list her relevant experience very specifically, and if our own aruna recommends her I'd be inclined to take that seriously. Her site looks encouraging, I think.

I also used a paid editor for my first novel.
I would emphasise that I exhausted the free options available to me, including a very talented crit group and a crit from a subsequently published novelist. My novel was pretty good when it went to the editor, with serious interest from a major publisher. It was much better when I finished the rewrites he suggested. He also got it looked at at another major publisher. I subsequently got an agent with that draft of the novel. No it didn't sell - 'good novel not what the market wants right now'.
The editor was relatively expensive - several hundred pounds sterling - but in the context of how much I had already invested in the novel (both time and money) I felt he was good value. I still think so now.

Waylander, did you use one for your second novel?

Waylander, I just want to say 'big respect' to you for posting that experience.

One has only to look at the great long lists of books (all Googleable, all checkable) that these various agencies have helped to publication between them to know there are a lot of writers who have benefited. But you don't often hear them saying so, which is why so many people hear only the negative stories.

I can understand that. I'd love people to believe I'm just so brilliant I got my deal all by myself - but it wouldn't be true. I had help. In my years as a script editor I often had to sit in meetings or even award ceremonies hearing writers take kudos for scripts and stories I knew for a fact owed as much to a specific editor as to the writer herself, and I determined never, never to be like that.

I'm not planning to use a service for my second book, because I now have a fabulous agent who will give me first-class editing advice herself - but I know it's largely down to that service that I have that agent in the first place.

Louise