Short stories...good money? Or just for the love of it?

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Words Are My Life

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Hi all-

This is my first post in this section of the forum...have been lurking in this section lately.

My passion is fiction, but lately I feel like I have no time to work on my full length novels b/c I spend so much time writing non-fiction and ad copy b/c it actually pays decent.

But my creative side feels the need to write some fiction, so I am thinking of finally plunging in to this short story stuff.

Is there anyone here who makes good money off writing short stories? Or is it something most people do as a creative outlet?
 

Robert E. Keller

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It varies, but it's extremely tough to make a living off short stories. If you get to where you're selling to pro-paying magazines consistently, you can make a few hundred dollars here and there. With the small markets, you're looking at a range from $0.00 to $40.00 per story. Few small markets actually pay more than $20.00. So I would say you probably shouldn't do it for the money--though making a name for yourself in short fiction could lead to money in the future. Also, if you're doing it for money only, you might find it difficult to get published even in the small markets. There are a lot of writers flooding the magazines with submissions, and editors can tell when a story is uninspired. I'd be surprised if someone answered you and said they were making "good money" off short fiction, though I know of some prolific writers who sell frequently to professional magazines. But even those writers might be hard pressed to call it good money. A full-time short fiction writer, selling only to professional markets, will probably make less than your typical fast-food worker in a single month. (Assuming the fast-food worker nets $800.00 and assuming the professional writer sells two stories per month at $300.00 each or three stories per month at $200.00 each.) It's a tough business, but well worth it if you love what you do. If you don't enjoy writing short fiction, my advice is don't do it. Stick with novels instead.
 
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Izz

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I think short fiction is good for three things:

1) It helps us hone our craft.

2) (this mainly applies if you're writing SFF) Can help you get noticed, thus making it easier to land a book deal.

3) Scratches that writing itch.

Short stories are a story form that is very different to the novel, and even within the various forms of short fiction (flash fic, short, novelette) the skill sets are different. In many ways it's sad that one can't make a living off short fic anymore, because a really good short story sticks around far longer than a good novel and takes a tenth of the time to read.

I don't think there's anybody left who makes a living off of short fiction--even those who sell regularly to pro markets won't be doing so more than once a month, i'd wager (plus, to get through slush at a pro market can sometimes take half a year). But it can provide a bit of pocket money, and it really does help hone those base writing skills.
 
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DeskBoundTeaDrinker

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I read a ton, and work (at my professional career job) a ton, and I love short stories. I so appreciate that there are great ones that can give me the enjoyment of a great story in a shorter form (I read novels too but my schedule can really drag those out). Short stories also eliminate my all-too-frequent frustration with the bloated boring parts of novels (not all, but many sure do fall into this kind of quicksand for a while).

So, my primary goal right now in my mystery/PI writing is honing a few short stories of which I can be proud. I acknowledge that the money won't be much but it will be 1) great practice in plotting and ending, 2) great general honing practice, 3) might allow me to finish and submit something before I'm a year older, and 4) since I really enjoy and appreciate the form already - I'll be writing something that I'd love to read.

I also see the short story practice helping to hone my craft as I work towards longer things, and might be a fun way to keep producing smaller, tighter works later on as I work on novels.

So I guess I'm not in it for the immediate money, but certainly for the immediate enjoyment and practice.
 

Words Are My Life

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Thanks for all your answers!!

I am not really interested in doing it to make money, was just sort of curious if anyone was making money from it.

I hope it works as some creative outlet for me in between working on stuff that does pay well, like marketing content. I have a mangled screen play that has been sitting around, I may try making a short story out of some of those characters. I will let you guys know how it goes.

I used to have to write short stories for a writing class in college, but haven't written one since then.
 

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I believe the best reason to write short stories is for the love of reading and writing them. But you can make a reasonable amount of money if you're good, prolific, and can sell the the right magazines on a regular basis.

I used to write a bunch of short stories for the outdoor adventure market, and for the outdoor humor markets, for mystery magazines, etc. The smallest market I wrote for paid $250 for 1,500 words, and the largest paid $1,000 for a first sale, and went up from there.

I'm a fast writer, and even some of the thousand dollar plus stories took only a few hours to write, so I couldn't complain about the hourly wage.

But, at best, short story money is supplemental income. I'm not sure making a living from short stories is at all possible today, though a good, prolific writer should be able to beat minimum wage. Still, I've seen times when even a $250 check looked big, and when a $1,000 check really helped the budget.
 

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I believe the best reason to write short stories is for the love of reading and writing them. But you can make a reasonable amount of money if you're good, prolific, and can sell the the right magazines on a regular basis.

I used to write a bunch of short stories for the outdoor adventure market, and for the outdoor humor markets, for mystery magazines, etc. The smallest market I wrote for paid $250 for 1,500 words, and the largest paid $1,000 for a first sale, and went up from there.

I'm a fast writer, and even some of the thousand dollar plus stories took only a few hours to write, so I couldn't complain about the hourly wage.

But, at best, short story money is supplemental income. I'm not sure making a living from short stories is at all possible today, though a good, prolific writer should be able to beat minimum wage. Still, I've seen times when even a $250 check looked big, and when a $1,000 check really helped the budget.

Certainly, a good, prolific writer could beat minimum wage if he included non-fiction in the mix. In the case of pure fiction, however, I believe beating minimum wage from short fiction alone would be extremely difficult for any writers but an elite few who have made huge names for themselves. And for science fiction, fantasy, or horror it would be even more difficult. For science fiction, it needs to be written in the current style that the pro magazines are interested in (not just good, but written in a certain style). For fantasy, it would need to be literary in style (no traditional sword and sorcery or high fantasy). So those are considerations that go beyond simply being a "good" or "bad" writer. It becomes a matter of matching your style to the few available professional markets, and even if you do that flawlessly, you're still looking at coming in below minimum wage. The writer (good and prolific, or not) who chooses Tolkien-style fantasy, Howard style sword and sorcery, Bradbury-style science fiction, or any style of horror is not even going to sniff minimum wage, in my opinion.

I don't know about fiction for adventure and humor magazines or what have you, so perhaps it's possible if you work that angle.

Regardless, there are plenty of good reasons to write short fiction. And there are very respectable paying markets. It's important, however, not to quit the day job.
 
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Alan Yee

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Write short stories if you enjoy them. Just don't expect to be able to quit your day job.
 

Jamesaritchie

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Certainly, a good, prolific writer could beat minimum wage if he included non-fiction in the mix. In the case of pure fiction, however, I believe beating minimum wage from short fiction alone would be extremely difficult for any writers but an elite few who have made huge names for themselves. And for science fiction, fantasy, or horror it would be even more difficult. For science fiction, it needs to be written in the current style that the pro magazines are interested in (not just good, but written in a certain style). For fantasy, it would need to be literary in style (no traditional sword and sorcery or high fantasy). So those are considerations that go beyond simply being a "good" or "bad" writer. It becomes a matter of matching your style to the few available professional markets, and even if you do that flawlessly, you're still looking at coming in below minimum wage. The writer (good and prolific, or not) who chooses Tolkien-style fantasy, Howard style sword and sorcery, Bradbury-style science fiction, or any style of horror is not even going to sniff minimum wage, in my opinion.

I don't know about fiction for adventure and humor magazines or what have you, so perhaps it's possible if you work that angle.

Regardless, there are plenty of good reasons to write short fiction. And there are very respectable paying markets. It's important, however, not to quit the day job.

Well, I've never included nonfiction in the mix. It's possible to earn an extremely good living writing short nonfiction, and I know several short nonfiction writers who earn fron sixty to one hundred thousand per year. Not too many can do this, but many, many nonfiction writers do earn a worthwhile living.

Of course you have to match the short stories you write to the existing markets, but there are far more paying markets out there than most writers realize. I would, however, add "versatile" to good and prolific.

From my experience, good sells, no matter what "style" magazines generally publish. Often, in fact, going against the style a magazine usually publishes will get you in faster than going with the common style. I've made more sales by consciously going against the usual style and content of a magazine than by going with it. I know an SF writer who has sold just about two dozen stories in teh last four years, writing very much part time, and his stories are nothing at all like the style and content the SF magazines usually run. He sells because he's good, and because he's different. He gives editors something they aren't getting elsewhere.

Before submitting to a magazine for the first time, particularly a high paying magazine, I read at least a dozen issue, more if I can get my hands on them, and the question I ask myself is not "What do they publish, and how do they like it," but "what haven't they published, and what do they want that they aren't finding in the slush?"

I've read a lot of slush piles, and by and large, what you find will be story after story after story that tries to mirror the content and style the magazine usually publishes. This works, if the story is exceptional, but what every editor loves to find is a story that does just the opposite. You always want good story and good character, but it's a pure pleasure to find a story that's unlike anything else above or below it in the slush pile. Originality in style and content really do matter.

Nor do I think it's a matter of having a big name. I sold back to back stories to Sports Afield, one for $1,000 and one for $800, at a time when no one anywhere had a clue who I was. The editor bought the stories out of the slush purely because he liked them. Total writing time for both stories was just about exactly eight hours.

For me, earning money from short stories is about the hourly wage, rather than about how much the market pays. Minimum wage iswhat, $7.25 per hour now? That's fifty-eight bucks per day, or $290 per week.

If you're versatile, a LOT of three hundred to four hundred dollar markets are out there, and it almost never takes me a week to write a short story.
If you can also hit some of the twenty-five to fifty cent per work markets, you can make from two to four weeks of minimum wage with one sale, which gives you a nice cushion.

As I said, you have to be versatile, and you have to keep your eyes open. I picked up a children's magazine, had never written anything like that before, but read the stories, sat down and wrote one in a few hours, and they paid me three hundred dollars, plus seventy-five extra bucks for one time, non-exclusive reprint rights, for twelve hundred words. That led to some nice money from other such magazines.

Reprint rights to non-competing markets also add to the tile in a nice way, and with little to no extra work. I've had stories make considerably more in reprint sales than they originally sold for.

You do have to be good, prolific, and versatile, but if you are these things, and if you can make a habit of giving editors what they aren't getting elsewhere, there's more money in short stories than most think.

I suspect more fiction writers would earn a decent amount of money from short stories if they didn't turn to novels. There's a lot more money in novels, and when a writer starts selling novels, his short story production usually goes way, way down.

Funny, but way back when, I did quit my day job based on a short story sale. Well, based on three short story sales, but I didn't know the other two had sold. That first story I wrote sold to a national magazine for roughly as much money as my day job paid in a month (Minimum wage was a LOT lower back then), and I said to heck with it.

Probably not a smart thing to do, and I sure don't recommend it, but it does depend on what your day job is. If you're pumping gas, or, as I was, shovelling coal and picking up heavy objects here and sitting them down there, for minimum wage, and know you can get another such job without trouble, you can take a chance without much worry. But if you're earning great money and have great benefits, quitting your day job is, well, stupid.
 

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You make some interesting points, James. I agree that editors like content that surprises them. But there are still common threads to be found in magazines. Personal taste is personal taste, and your chances of being successful increase if you match up to what an editor likes or what a magazine typically publishes. Otherwise, why bother with content guidelines? Why not just say "Surprise me!" and call it good. I strongly disagree that deliberately going against an editor's personal tastes is the best way to make a sale. It's great to surprise an editor with a unique story, but you're still not going to get sword and sorcery (with no science fiction element) into Asimov's magazine, for example.

I like your optimism, James, but I don't think most writers can make minimum wage off short fiction (especially those who write science fiction, fantasy, and horror).

Here is a quote from an article the great Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote: "EDITORS REJECT STORIES, GOOD AND BAD, BECAUSE THEY FEEL THAT THE PARTICULAR STORY WILL NOT GIVE THEIR READERS THE KIND OF SPECIFIC READING EXPERIENCE THEY WANT OR EXPECT IN THAT PARTICULAR MAGAZINE."

Here is the link: http://mzbworks.home.att.net/why.htm
 
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Jamesaritchie

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You make some interesting points, James. I agree that editors like content that surprises them. But there are still common threads to be found in magazines. Personal taste is personal taste, and your chances of being successful increase if you match up to what an editor likes or what a magazine typically publishes. Otherwise, why bother with content guidelines? Why not just say "Surprise me!" and call it good. I strongly disagree that deliberately going against an editor's personal tastes is the best way to make a sale. It's great to surprise an editor with a unique story, but you're still not going to get sword and sorcery (with no science fiction element) into Asimov's magazine, for example.

I like your optimism, James, but I don't think most writers can make minimum wage off short fiction (especially those who write science fiction, fantasy, and horror).

Here is a quote from an article the great Marion Zimmer Bradley wrote: "EDITORS REJECT STORIES, GOOD AND BAD, BECAUSE THEY FEEL THAT THE PARTICULAR STORY WILL NOT GIVE THEIR READERS THE KIND OF SPECIFIC READING EXPERIENCE THEY WANT OR EXPECT IN THAT PARTICULAR MAGAZINE."

Here is the link: http://mzbworks.home.att.net/why.htm

I never said you should go against an editor's personal taste. To the contrary, you must go with an editor's personal taste. But you can't just read the guidelines and have a clue what an editor's personal taste really is.

As for Marion Zommer Bradley, I don't think she meant that the way you take it. Editors do reject good stories for the reason she states, but if it really is a good story, someone, somewhere WILL buy it. Always. I've had stories rejected from fifteen to twenty times, and then sell for a thousand dollars or more. When a story never sells anywhere to anyone, it is not a good story. And editors always reject bad stories with bad characters and bad writing.

It's true that a story, even a very good story, must fit a particular magazine, that's a given, but you can't tell what this is just by reading guidelines, or even strictly from reading issues. A good writer knows how to do this, or should know how to do this, else he isn't likely to sell much of anything, anywhere.

Bradley also said that any writer who could sell a single short story could earn a living as a writer. Not just make minimum wage, but earn a living.

As for Asimov's, they've published a fair number of fantasy stories over the years, ones that had zero science ficion elements. At least, Gardner Dozois bought several such stories. I don;t yet know how Sheila Williams feels about them. Analog is another story, but even there, only publishing hard science fiction does not mean the editor wants only one kind of story, written in one kind of style. The toughest thing there is to do is sell a story when you're just cloning everything you've read in a magazine, thinking this means meeting an editor's personal taste.

I've been an editor more than once, and no editor can publish anything except what writers send him. Far too many writers simply read the guidelines, let it go at that, and write/submit the same thing a thousand other writers are writing and submitting.

Now, it's true enough that most writers can't earn minimum wage from writing short stories, but most writers can't sell anything to anyone, and even most of those who do sell occasionally are just taking the hit or miss route, following guidelines and hoping something sells. And most aren't anywhere near productive enough. You can't write one short story every two months, and expect to have much success.

I'd also say that if there's a single genre where a good writer can earn minimum wage, it's SF. No other genre has more reprint markets, more anthologies, more places for a story to get a second, third, or tenth appearance. I remember Roger Zelazny, before he was at the top of his fame, saying he paid for a cruise to Alaska from a single short story that originally sold for a nickel per word, simply through reprint rights.

I don't think optimism has anything to do with it. I know most who try writing simply will never sell anything to anyone, and most who can sell occasinally won't be productive enough to make much money, and/or won't know how to consistently give editors what no one else is offering.

As a group, writers don't sell very well, or earn very much money. But as individuals, everything changes. If you look at any slush pile, just about three to four percent of the writers therein will sell nearly 100% of the stories an editor buys, and this tends to be the same three to four percent of writers wherever you look within a given genre.

If you can consistently place yourself in that top three to four percent, if you're productive, and if you keep everything you write on the market, as Heinlein states in his rules, you can earn a surprising amount of money.

The real problem with earning minimum wage from short stories is that it usually isn't worth it. By the time you reach the point where you can come close to doing this, you should be able to earn a heck of a lot more money by writing novels, books, articles, etc.

But writing short stories that sell isn't an accident, and it shouldn't be a hit and miss proposition. It's a matter of talent and craft, and of knowing how to give editors what they want that no one else is offering.
 

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James, concerning your latest post, I agree with some of the things you said--in particular that if a writer can manage to earn a living off short fiction he's better off trying to do it by some other method. So, I don't think we're too far off the same page on this issue, aside from disagreeing on a few details.

I've only been selling short fiction to paying markets since January of this year, so my experience in the business is limited. But I think the point here is clear: Most writers shouldn't expect to make a living off short fiction. I don't think we disagree on that. I'll give you this: there is some money to be gained in short fiction, but as you said, only a few writers are going to reap those benefits.

I've run out of angles for my argument here, but it's been an interesting discussion.
 

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I have made a little money off my stories -- a very little -- but it's enough I have hope there might be more in the future. :D

But that's not why I write: I write because I love the art form. I love brevity, choosing my words carefully... (You wouldn't know it to hear me talk, but I suppose that's why I like the ability to be brief in writing so much.) I love reading stories that give you an adrenaline rush and that you can't stop thinking about months & years later, and it's my goal to be that good.

(It's also my goal to get more people to love short stories, but we'll see how that goes. ;) )

I write because I love. Plain and Simple.
 

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If you want to make a living writing, you'll have a better chance when you try to find time to work on your novel. While short stories usually take less time to finish, to make any sort of comfortable cash of them, you'd need to work on it fulltime which doesn't really go well together with the lack of time you mentioned. Once you've found the time, writing novels is likely to earn you more.
 

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Fiction is my first love as a writer and I still write a great deal of fiction. I have sold many short stories, some to pretty good markets, but it's never been enough to make a living from short stories alone.

Thus I write a lot of non-fiction for both print and online venues to augment what I make with short fiction.

In the last twenty years or so, I have seen many good paying fiction markets wither and die. Thus there are less higher paying markets for fiction these days - I forget the exact number but I saw a news story earlier this morning that talked about how many magazines of all types have folded thus far in 2009.
 

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ping ... echo

Short stories...good money? Or just for the love of it?

I believe the best reason to write short stories is for the love of reading and writing them.

But, at best, short story money is supplemental income.

Now, it's true enough that most writers can't earn minimum wage from writing short stories... [because] most aren't anywhere near productive enough.

Agreed. I've noticed a direct correlation between how productive I am and how much money I make.
 

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Fiction is my first love as a writer and I still write a great deal of fiction. I have sold many short stories, some to pretty good markets, but it's never been enough to make a living from short stories alone.

Thus I write a lot of non-fiction for both print and online venues to augment what I make with short fiction.

In the last twenty years or so, I have seen many good paying fiction markets wither and die. Thus there are less higher paying markets for fiction these days - I forget the exact number but I saw a news story earlier this morning that talked about how many magazines of all types have folded thus far in 2009.

Yes, the magazine market is in bad shape, but there's nothing new about this. Back when I first started writing, I sold twelve stories to twelve different magazines over about a three year period, and all twelve magazines folded before any of those stories were actually published.

If you know where to look, there are more short story outlets than any of the lists I've seen show, but not nearly as many as there were thirty years ago. It's too soon to know whether the internet will eventually make up for this with e-zines and podcasts.

We're definitely is some sort of transition period, but where it will take us is still up in the air.
 

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Thanks everyone! A lot of good information here. I write short stories because I love to write as well as read them. It is a shame that the market is declining...
 

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James, concerning your latest post, I agree with some of the things you said--in particular that if a writer can manage to earn a living off short fiction he's better off trying to do it by some other method. So, I don't think we're too far off the same page on this issue, aside from disagreeing on a few details.

I've only been selling short fiction to paying markets since January of this year, so my experience in the business is limited. But I think the point here is clear: Most writers shouldn't expect to make a living off short fiction. I don't think we disagree on that. I'll give you this: there is some money to be gained in short fiction, but as you said, only a few writers are going to reap those benefits.

I've run out of angles for my argument here, but it's been an interesting discussion.

It has been interesting. One angle I didn't touch on the complicates the problem is that minimum wage is almost three times what it was when I first started writing, and you have to earn a heck of a lot more money now just to survive, but magazine pay rates really haven't increased at all in thirty years.

Even with minimum wage at $7.25, you'd have to live like a monk, and almost certainly be on food stamps, to survive with such little income.

I'm out of touch on the numbers, but I think average income now is somewhere around $32,000, and I'm not sure it's really possible to survive all on your own, with no help from the government, parents, or someone, with less than $20,000 or so.

It's tough enough earning this kind of money from novels, articles, etc., especially after an agent takes 15%, and Social Security takes another 15%, and then this tax and that tax eats even more. I'm lucky if I can keep half of what I earn, and this makes it all that much tougher.

I read somewhere that the last writer to actually earn a real living, meaning meeting at least average income, strictly from writing short stories was Paul Darcy Boles, a writer most have never heard of. Ray Bradbury wasn't counted, but only because he's made so much money from screenplays, TV scripts, etc.

It's just hard enough earning a living right now, no matter what you do, let alone from writing short stories.
 

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It has been interesting. One angle I didn't touch on the complicates the problem is that minimum wage is almost three times what it was when I first started writing, and you have to earn a heck of a lot more money now just to survive, but magazine pay rates really haven't increased at all in thirty years.

.

James, you are absolutely correct. I oft cite a market where I sold a piece in 1988 that pays the same today despite inflation. It is a problem that we as writers must deal with and minimum wage is indeed a heck of a lot more.

By the way, welcome back! Your sage advice and insights have been missed while you were away.
 

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By the way, welcome back! Your sage advice and insights have been missed while you were away.

i'll echo that. it's great to see you, james.

interesting thread and, numbers aside, i'll merely say that any consistent success in the short story market must be rooted in a genuine love for the form.
 

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It has been interesting. One angle I didn't touch on the complicates the problem is that minimum wage is almost three times what it was when I first started writing, and you have to earn a heck of a lot more money now just to survive, but magazine pay rates really haven't increased at all in thirty years.

Even with minimum wage at $7.25, you'd have to live like a monk, and almost certainly be on food stamps, to survive with such little income.

I'm out of touch on the numbers, but I think average income now is somewhere around $32,000, and I'm not sure it's really possible to survive all on your own, with no help from the government, parents, or someone, with less than $20,000 or so.

It's tough enough earning this kind of money from novels, articles, etc., especially after an agent takes 15%, and Social Security takes another 15%, and then this tax and that tax eats even more. I'm lucky if I can keep half of what I earn, and this makes it all that much tougher.

I read somewhere that the last writer to actually earn a real living, meaning meeting at least average income, strictly from writing short stories was Paul Darcy Boles, a writer most have never heard of. Ray Bradbury wasn't counted, but only because he's made so much money from screenplays, TV scripts, etc.

It's just hard enough earning a living right now, no matter what you do, let alone from writing short stories.

I agree. There is one guy, by the way, who claims to be making a nice living off short fiction, but I can't remember his name. He apparently has sold more than 800 short stories. I believe he's a member of the SFWA. Anyone know who I'm talking about?
 

Maryn

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...and I'm not sure it's really possible to survive all on your own, with no help from the government, parents, or someone, with less than $20,000 or so.
Just for a point of reference, it's possible to live on less; our son has been managing on about $14,000 a year for well over a year now, our daughter on $18,000. Of course, they're young, reasonably healthy, and willing to live simply. I'm sure it would get real old within a few years, or if you had to support anyone else.

Maryn, whose kids don't like to ask for anything except advice
 

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I agree. There is one guy, by the way, who claims to be making a nice living off short fiction, but I can't remember his name. He apparently has sold more than 800 short stories. I believe he's a member of the SFWA. Anyone know who I'm talking about?

Is it Michael Bracken? He's writes very quickly in multiple genres. He writes everything from crime fiction to sci-fi to confessions, which is probably why he can make a living from short fiction.

http://www.crimefictionwriter.com/Creative.html

ETA: according to his site, he's sold over 1100 stories!
 
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Adam Israel

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Mike Resnick, I believe, does well for himself by selling short fiction. He doesn't do it exclusively, though. He's one of the most prolific that I can think of, though.
 
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