Writing Prof. Seems Befuddled by First Person POV

Travis J. Smith · Sep 29, 2009

Last Tuesday, we had a writing exercise due in my Intro. to Fiction course. Perusing the pages before handing it in, I began to have second thoughts. Wasn't really given enough time to let it simmer, then come back at it with fresh eyes. Looking over it, multiple spots of potential confusion stood out to me. Nothing I could do then, though. Needless to say, I was expecting a lukewarm response to my exercise.

While she marked points of confusion, what struck me were the following questions (copied verbatim):

"Whose words/thoughts are these?"
"Again, whose words?"

Questions posed about the thoughts of the narrator in a story written in first person.

:Wha:

My understanding of first person was that it is confined to how one character, the narrator, perceives events. Always. There unique situations I'm unaware of where that's not the case with first person point of view or are you as stricken by this as I am?

EDIT: And, in the summation of her thoughts on the back of the story, she wrote this (again, verbatim): "I wonder about the use of italics - whose words are these?"

Italics to signal thoughts in first person narration is standard practice, is it not? Haven't seen thoughts denoted any other way, to be quite honest.

MGraybosch · Sep 29, 2009

Did the instructions for the exercise specify a particular POV?

Travis J. Smith · Sep 29, 2009

That's another reason it struck me as peculiar. We began this exercise by writing a first person character sketch. From there, we fleshed them out into scenes/stories based on her guidelines.

:Shrug:

timewaster · Sep 29, 2009

"Whose wordy thoughts are these?"
"Again, whose words?"

Maybe she was trying to say that the words and thoughts seemed like they were yours rather than the characters?
Perhaps she thought they were too 'wordy' for the kind of POV character you'd chosen.

My understanding of first person was that it is confined to how one character, the narrator, perceives events. Always. There unique situations I'm unaware of where that's not the case with first person point of view or are you as stricken by this as I am?[/QUOTE]

Yes. She was perhaps telling you that the voice of your narrator did not convince? ( I can imagine writing something similar in those circumstances: /)

MGraybosch · Sep 29, 2009

Travis J. Smith said:
That's another reason it struck me as peculiar. We began this exercise by writing a first person character sketch. From there, we fleshed them out into scenes/stories based on her guidelines.

I'm not sure what to tell you without having seen what you handed in.

alleycat · Sep 29, 2009

Did you put those particular thoughts within quotation marks for any reason? Or were they in a stand-alone sentence?

Mr Flibble · Sep 29, 2009

Out of context it's going to be extremely hard to say

But - do these comments align with your perceived points of confusion? At this point does your narrator suddenly talk in a voice not his own? ( ie he's been terse all the way through but now comes over all purple and flowery?) Has your prof detected some authorial intrusion you weren't aware of ( that the opinions given aren't your narrators but yours)?

Sometimes just the fact that someone is confused by a passage is enough to get you to look at it again. It doesn't matter so much why they were confused, just that they were, and that in itself is a reason to try harder just there.

But if you could give us some context that might help.

ETA - blimey we all posted at once!

alleycat · Sep 29, 2009

MGraybosch said:
I'm not sure what to tell you without having seen what you handed in.

Yeah, it's hard to say where the problem is without seeing the work.

KTC · Sep 29, 2009

I'd have to see it to understand better. Sorry...it could be a number of things...did you want to post the excerpt?

Travis J. Smith · Sep 29, 2009

EDIT: Walk away. Nothing to see here. I've discovered the root of the problem.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

This Is My Blood, Page 1

And I sit until I'd swear my ass was no longer part of my body, wondering if blood tastes as metallic as my fingers smell after shifts here in the toll booth. How poetic it would be. All the greedy, gagging on blood, tasting the tsate of the grubby change they shan't dare part with.

A pluming mushroom cloud, rising over the far off hills like the sun, signals humankind's inevitable implosion. Rapt, I look on. Recall asking mother, as we watched expertly placed charges make ruin of the longstanding stadium, "Aren't people in there?" Her denial.

My disappointment.

Craning to see out, I'm reminded of how thin and measly my makeshift shield appears. But a single pane of plastic, little more than a sliver.

Spared all expense.

God'd not allow it. If it were my time, he'd be swift about it. I'd not be left to wither away like some pedestrian sinner.

Words, I remember at random.

"You mustn't dare a look at the 'shroom cloud, else it be taking y'ur mother and ye up in the sky 'long wit' it."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Focusing solely on where the narrator's thoughts appear, I can see why such confusion might arise. The first instance of his thoughts was rather wordy, I admit, and so perhaps a little too out of place to take for his thoughts. The second instance of his thoughts is followed by, "Words, I remember at random," which was one of the potential points of confusion I mentioned noticing as I gave it a final once-over before handing it in. "Words, I remember at random," was meant to apply to the quote that follows it, but I can see how her confusion might lead her to think it is referring to his thoughts above.

Looking at it now, I guess it was even more a muddled, confusing mess than I thought.

*files this story away for an overhauling*

KTC · Sep 29, 2009

I think there might be reason to question whose thoughts they are...as they could very well be those of the narrator's mother. Perhaps that's what she was thinking? (well...especially the second instance.)

KTC · Sep 29, 2009

Travis J. Smith said:
EDIT: And, in the summation of her thoughts on the back of the story, she wrote this (again, verbatim): "I wonder about the use of italics - whose words are these?"

Italics to signal thoughts in first person narration is standard practice, is it not? Haven't seen thoughts denoted any other way, to be quite honest.

In FP I use them in certain instances where the narrator might say something...and then continue with inner dialogue that runs from the same thoughts as the dialogue.

Travis J. Smith · Sep 29, 2009

Whatever her confusion, I can see how my disorienting narrative could be the culprit.

But I hope none of you take that as a representation of my work as a whole. Like I said, even I read through it the day I turned it in and felt ashamed of myself for turning in such an abysmal effort, at least in terms of clarity. There's potential here, but even it doesn't get the chance to shine through because of the writing.

Still, I'll leave that excerpt up there. Not for posterity, but in the hopes that people can learn from my mistakes as I will learn from them.

KTC · Sep 29, 2009

Travis J. Smith said:
Whatever her confusion, I can see how my disorienting narrative could be the culprit.

But I hope none of you take that as a representation of my work as a whole. Like I said, even I read through it the day I turned it in and felt ashamed of myself for turning in such an abysmal effort, at least in terms of clarity. There's potential here, but even it doesn't get the chance to shine through because of the writing.

Not at all, Travis! I thought it would be okay to ask you to post because it was known that it was first draft...hoping we could maybe see where her thoughts were. I always consider my own as 'first draft ugly'. Nobody should be judged by first draft. Don't think twice about it. Thanks for sharing it.

Ps...don't be so hard on yourself. it's certainly not abysmal.

Travis J. Smith · Sep 29, 2009

Rather than make a separate thread for this, I imagine it would be okay to pose the following question here.

If you were to go into this knowing it's story about a man stranded alone in his toll booth when a nuclear warhead detonates in the distance and his internal struggles as he wonders whether or not he's far enough away from the blast zone or if the plastic mentioned in the excerpt will protect him from the radiation if he's too close . . .

Would you read it, or does the premise strike you as dull or stale?

P.S. KTC, why I'm so self-deprecating in this instance is because, before outside factors forced me to take a sizable break from writing, I felt I'd broken the habit of allowing myself to break off into this brand of muddled prose where confusion is bound to result. Thought I'd made strides in putting what I had in mind to the page with clarity. With this, I essentially relapsed. But I guess it only makes sense that I went back to what I've known longest after a hiatus.

MGraybosch · Sep 29, 2009

Travis J. Smith said:
Still, I'll leave that excerpt up there. Not for posterity, but in the hopes that people can learn from my mistakes as I will learn from them.

That's why I've kept my own crap up.

Stijn Hommes · Sep 30, 2009

Instead of guessing what was the matter, I'd have taken this back to the writing prof and ask them to clarify. It's the easiest way to get to the bottom of the problem. You're there to learn and the prof isn't gonna eat you if you ask a question...

Travis J. Smith · Sep 30, 2009

Hommes, I was starving at the time, so I decided I'd rather not stay after class to ask any questions. :tongue

maestrowork · Sep 30, 2009

The problem is you're italicizing particular thoughts, which is NOT necessary in first person. When you do that, suddenly we're disoriented. Who is speaking there? Why are those italicized? Is it still the narrator speaking?

In first person, there really is no difference between thoughts and observation/narration. They're all part of the narrator's perspective. To the readers, it's very clear what are thoughts/musing and what are descriptions of events, etc.

mscelina · Sep 30, 2009

Yep, I agree. I run into this a lot when I'm editing. The narrative is already internal dialogue, so there's no need to italicize anything. The only exception might be--and this has to be done really, really well--if there's somehow another sentience for your narrator (ie--alternate personality, argumentative psychic parasite, etc) and the narrator actually indulges in conversation or debate. Then you might have to italicize, but otherwise not at all.

veinglory · Sep 30, 2009

"Words, I remember at random." Particularly suggests to me that these are not the POV characters thoughts.

Toothpaste · Sep 30, 2009

I know all has been resolved. But just in case . . .

A quick way to solve at least your latter problem is to add a colon -

Words, I remember at random:

"You mustn't dare a look at the 'shroom cloud, else it be taking y'ur mother and ye up in the sky 'long wit' it."

ideagirl · Sep 30, 2009

Travis J. Smith said:
And I sit until I'd swear my ass was no longer part of my body, wondering if blood tastes as metallic as my fingers smell after shifts here in the toll booth. How poetic it would be. All the greedy, gagging on blood, tasting the tsate of the grubby change they shan't dare part with.

So here's the thing: with a first-person narrator, you don't italicize his or her thoughts because the entire story, with the exception of dialogue, is his or her thoughts. A first-person narrator describing a place or a person is sharing their impressions (i.e. their thoughts) of that place or person; a first-person narrator telling you what's happening is, again, sharing their impressions (i.e. their thoughts) of what happened. Using italics to indicate someone's thoughts only makes sense in third-person limited or omniscient narration--i.e., in stories where most of what's on the page is the narrator's thoughts, but here and there some of the character's thoughts are expressed. So, it's confusing to see italics used that way in a first-person story. Rewrite your paragraph above without the italics, and the problem is gone.

Phaeal · Sep 30, 2009

In deep penetration POV, first pretty much by definition, third limited usually, you don't need to set off the narrator's thoughts with italics. Mscelina notes one valid exception above.

Another exception, to be used very infrequently, would be when you want to emphasize a particular thought.

Scarlett tossed aside the radish and raised her fist to heaven. God as my witness, I'll never go hungry again!

But for the most part, I'd write this:

Scarlett tossed aside the radish and raised her fist to heaven. God as her witness, she would never go hungry again.

KTC · Sep 30, 2009

As I said above, I use italics to follow through from dialogue. Just scanned a manuscript to find an example, but couldn't see one. Not sure if I'm explaining it properly, but I mean when the character says one thing and continues the thought process of the dialogue in his/her head. I also use italics when the FP character narrates something like,

I still remember thinking, what is he doing?

OR

I thought to myself, what is he thinking.

Writing Prof. Seems Befuddled by First Person POV

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