Multiple POV question

Mike Martyn · Jul 7, 2005

I've just starting the first re-write on myh first novel. Some of it is surprising good IMHO, some of it's pure crap. Well, that's what re-writes are for.

I have one scene in which two of the main characters have points of view ie; they share their thoughts with the reader. Assuming the reader can easily determine whose POV it is at any given time, how common/workable is this?

reph · Jul 7, 2005

I see it occasionally in New Yorker stories, which I presume have been polished until you can see your face in them at a hundred yards, and it always looks like an authorial slip to me as a reader.

sunandshadow · Jul 7, 2005

Having two characters' povs in the same scene is generally considered head-hopping, a minor no-no; if possible, just put a line break between their sections.

Mistook · Jul 7, 2005

Mike Martyn said:
I have one scene in which two of the main characters have points of view ie; they share their thoughts with the reader.

Is this scene meant to show what they think of each other? If so, there may be better ways to approach it. Head-hopping in novels comes off as cheesy most of the time. Depending on how the story sets us up for this scene, you may be able to indicate the thoughts through the spoken conversation and body language.

aadams73 · Jul 7, 2005

It can be done but depending on the skill of the writer, it's tricky to strike the right note. Nora Roberts does it well, maybe flick through a book or two of hers and see how she handles it.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 7, 2005

Roberts

aadams73 said:
It can be done but depending on the skill of the writer, it's tricky to strike the right note. Nora Roberts does it well, maybe flick through a book or two of hers and see how she handles it.

Yes, but even Nora Roberts says it's a mistake, but that she just can't write without doing it, no matter how hard she tries.

If you're going to have two POV characters in the same scene, you need a really strong reason, and a ton of talent, to pull it off.

maestrowork · Jul 7, 2005

IMHO, it's better to show it through action and dialogue without headhopping.

Switching internal thoughts is always boring to me. I'd rather see things unfold than having someone tell me what these people are thinking about each other...

sunandshadow · Jul 7, 2005

maestrowork said:
IMHO, it's better to show it through action and dialogue without headhopping.

Switching internal thoughts is always boring to me. I'd rather see things unfold than having someone tell me what these people are thinking about each other...

Well that's a matter of taste though, for me it's the other way around, I'd way rather read lovers or rivals thinking about each other than only have a few lines of dialogue and have to guess at what's really going on in their minds.

brinkett · Jul 7, 2005

I sometimes do this (intentionally). The trick is not to change POV like a ping-pong ball. If you think the scene will be stronger by doing it, what you do is have one character hold the POV baton for a while, then you pass that baton to another character for a while. If you do it right, nobody cares.

sunandshadow said:
Well that's a matter of taste though, for me it's the other way around, I'd way rather read lovers or rivals thinking about each other than only have a few lines of dialogue and have to guess at what's really going on in their minds.

Me too. Sometimes "showing" gets a bit ridiculous, and leads to over the top reactions, physical mannerisms, or facial contortions that nobody has in real life.

Mistook · Jul 7, 2005

sunandshadow said:
Well that's a matter of taste though, for me it's the other way around, I'd way rather read lovers or rivals thinking about each other than only have a few lines of dialogue and have to guess at what's really going on in their minds.

If it's two lovers, I think the story can be set up in such a way that by the time the critical scene comes along, the reader will be able to imagine what each character must be thinking. A bit of this comes from body language, but the real art is just in writing dialogue with some depth.

John chooses to ask a certain question next because it extends from his internal reaction to her last statement, and he words it in a certain way for the same reason. Perhaps he's leading, or being evasive, or both. Perhaps it's a trick question, or one with a double meaning. The reader shouldn't have to guess too terribly hard to understand what's going on beneath the surface.

katiemac · Jul 7, 2005

I'd way rather read lovers or rivals thinking about each other than only have a few lines of dialogue and have to guess at what's really going on in their minds.

I originally wrote a scene that head-hopped between my two main characters. It's been reworked and doesn't stand that way anymore, but my original reasoning for it was because one character was basically falling for another, who was lying to him. It didn't work as a one-sided POV, because the second character was such a good actress he believed everything she "showed" him.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 7, 2005

sunandshadow said:
Well that's a matter of taste though, for me it's the other way around, I'd way rather read lovers or rivals thinking about each other than only have a few lines of dialogue and have to guess at what's really going on in their minds.

If it's done right, you don't have to guess.

James D. Macdonald · Jul 7, 2005

This is why they call what we do an "art."

Mike Martyn · Jul 8, 2005

James D. Macdonald said:
This is why they call what we do an "art."

Damn. I was afraid of that!

Seriously though, thanks to everyone for your replies.

Cautious baton passing will be my limit.

aadams73 · Jul 8, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
Yes, but even Nora Roberts says it's a mistake, but that she just can't write without doing it, no matter how hard she tries.

I

Ah ok, thanks, I hadn't heard that. I'm reading a reissue of one of Janet Evanovich's older romance novels and she head hops like crazy and it's quite distracting. It's also reassuring to see that she wasn't always completely brilliant and hilarious.

aruna · Jul 8, 2005

If you want an example of multiple POV in a literary novel, try A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth (I mentioned this a few weeks ago o a different thread.) He hops from oe head to another even in the mid-sentence and uses several POV's on one page. And the funny thing is, he can do it. The novel works; I never noticed before I looked.

pixiejuice · Jul 8, 2005

???

aruna said:
If you want an example of multiple POV in a literary novel, try A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth (I mentioned this a few weeks ago o a different thread.) He hops from oe head to another even in the mid-sentence and uses several POV's on one page. And the funny thing is, he can do it. The novel works; I never noticed before I looked.

This is something I've been wondering about lately.

Writing books and teachers tell us to be consistant with our POVs. But I've noticed that John Irving head hops a LOT. I've seen three or four POVs in a sentence before. When I read one of his novels, I have to just accept that he has free entry to any one of the character's heads, anytime he wants.

Now, John Irving is a brilliant writer, but I can't quite recognize what he is doing that makes his head hopping okay, when mine would just be confusing.

So can anyone explain to me what makes head hopping done well, or badly? What is successful head hopping, and when would you use it?

brinkett · Jul 8, 2005

pixiejuice said:
So can anyone explain to me what makes head hopping done well, or badly? What is successful head hopping, and when would you use it?

It's done well when the reader isn't jarred, confused, or pulled out of the story.

When to use it? No pat answer. As the writer, you have to decide when it'll make a scene stronger.

Kiva Wolfe · Jul 8, 2005

I write in more character POVs than I can count on one hand, they kind of go with my multifaceted personality (LOL). I always stick to one character POV per scene, but often switch character POVs from scene to scene in a given chapter. The concept of writing more than one character POV in one scene zaps my brain synapses. I admire anyone who can do it.

CalicoBean · Jul 8, 2005

brinkett said:
It's done well when the reader isn't jarred, confused, or pulled out of the story.

When to use it? No pat answer. As the writer, you have to decide when it'll make a scene stronger.

Yes, exactly.

Recently I went back to study Garth Nix's SABRIEL (an MG fantasy). My memory of the POV was that it was a limited third, told from the main character's (Sabriel's) POV. What I discovered is that while it's told mostly from Sabriel's POV, there is not only some head hopping within scenes, but there are also some slips into an omniscient story-teller POV. And it works very well. There seems to be a lot more flexibility with POV than many writing books lead readers to believe. Although writers who are unaware of POV and don't make POV choices -- whatever those choices may be -- probably make pretty dreadful mistakes.

Ronda · Jul 8, 2005

I have a scene that I take from 2 characters' POV, but I have a blank space between sections when I'm switching, so it's not like playing head ping-pong. My reviewers have said it works - so far. A few more opinions in the next couple of weeks.

What do your reviewers or critique group members say?

I personally find it jarring to bounce from head to head in a scene.

brinkett · Jul 9, 2005

My reviewers have said it works - so far. A few more opinions in the next couple of weeks.
What do your reviewers or critique group members say?
I personally find it jarring to bounce from head to head in a scene.

It it's jarring, then it wasn't done right. When I do it, my betas don't complain unless I've been clumsy about it. I don't like a blank line when the same scene will be continued. I'd rather the author just go ahead and switch POV. When I see a blank line, I expect a new scene to follow.

Crista · Jul 9, 2005

I firmly believe in that saying that all rules can be broken, especially in writing. But, the key for me has always been learning the rules and knowing them forward, backwards and sideways BEFORE breaking them. I've tried a few experiments with POV, even with multiple ones in the same scene, but, for me, I can never manage to make it smooth and unnoticable. When I try head-hopping, it always seems to read very jerky and unbalanced. I think I've become so used to writing in a single POV throughout a scene that head-hopping feels strange to me to write and I convey that on the page.

I completely agree with what others have said, though. I don't think that head-hopping can NEVER be used, but it can be hard to do well.

maestrowork · Jul 9, 2005

If it works -- omniscient can be very interesting.

What I can't stand, though, is a story told entirely in 3rd limited, then once in a while, the author slips up and head-hops for no good reason. That shows laziness on both the author's and editor's part. One examine is Skipping Christmas by Grisham. In one chapter, it's all Nora's POV, then suddenly he head-hops into her friend's mind for one sentence. Ugh!

Beb · Jul 9, 2005

Something that confuses me about POV, is the "head hopping" issue. If I have a chapter told from the MC's POV, and then write something like:

"He (the MC) didn't notice her smile, to her great displeasure."

Does that count as head-hopping, or does it only count if I actually show "her" inner-dialog? If the above counts as head-hopping, then what's so bad about it? If I were to just have "her" act rudely towards the MC for seemingly no reason (he didn't notice the smile) then the readers would be just as lost as he was.

I've read all the posts about POV I could find on the board but I feel like I'm still missing something.

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