Contracts-

Nateskate · Jul 3, 2005

I know this subject has been talked about before, so links would be appreciated if this is redundant.

The two agencies I'm looking at have two different sets of standards in terms of if things don't work out. The one agent is not just an agent, but also a part owner of the agency. If a writer wants to part, (I didn't ask) their standard is a ninety day notice on anything you've submitted. So, if you don't like them, or things just aren't working, you notify them and ninety days later you can switch. At this point, I can't imagine that happening. I figure if they want to represent me, considering their reputation in the business, then chances are my book(s) stand a better than average chance of being published.

The other, from what I've seen, has a two year binding contract-book by book. They are a big agency and represent some big names, including best-sellers. So, it's not that I foresee problems, but is this kind of a contract a potential problem? I know beggars can't be choosers.

I don't see myself as having a whole lot of leverage at this point. Yet, I'm ultimately pitching a series, although book one could stand alone. Would that leave me unable to sell my story for two years if things don't seem to be working out?

Jamesaritchie · Jul 3, 2005

Contracts

Even a "binding" contract should allow the writer to bow out if things aren't working. What a writer can't do is wait until an agent gets an offer, and then bow out before the agent is paid.

But a writer should not be tied to an agent for two years with no outs. Six months in, you may well find you and this agent are simply incompatible, and at this point you should be let out of a contract.

Nateskate · Jul 3, 2005

Jamesaritchie said:
Even a "binding" contract should allow the writer to bow out if things aren't working. What a writer can't do is wait until an agent gets an offer, and then bow out before the agent is paid.

But a writer should not be tied to an agent for two years with no outs. Six months in, you may well find you and this agent are simply incompatible, and at this point you should be let out of a contract.

It would seem weird to bring this up if I'm courting an agent, but maybe I should ask. "What if..." It just seems like the wrong foot to start on.

It almost sounds like taking a knee, and saying, "I want to ask you to marry me...but just in case...I've written this little pre-nup and want you to look it over." Takes the romance right out. And until I have a few books under my belt, I'm not really a hot item. "Oh, your books are so stunning, I completely understand." It must be nice to get to that place.

Cathy C · Jul 3, 2005

But what you've forgotten, Nateskate, is that YOU'RE hiring THEM! You are going to be the one making the money that they get a chunk of, so there's nothing at all wrong with asking these questions. You have every right, and it's not a matter of being in a particular "place" to ask.

One of the concerns that has popped up on a number of authors boards lately is the "never-ending agency clause." This is sort of what you were saying about the two-year lock in, but for a longer period (like forever.) This is a bad, bad thing for an author.

The agent that you want to find is one that does a book by book deal with a master agreement and a 30-90 day opt-out clause on either side with a release of any manuscripts under consideration by publishers (that haven't been accepted for pub yet.) By having a "master" agreement, you don't have to sign a new piece of paper each time they sell a new manuscript --- the old contract just keeps on truckin' under the same terms as the previous book you both agreed they would represent. No agent will probably accept every single book you write, at least at first and especially if you write in multiple genres, so the master agreement is nice.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 3, 2005

contract

Nateskate said:
It would seem weird to bring this up if I'm courting an agent, but maybe I should ask. "What if..." It just seems like the wrong foot to start on.

It almost sounds like taking a knee, and saying, "I want to ask you to marry me...but just in case...I've written this little pre-nup and want you to look it over." Takes the romance right out. And until I have a few books under my belt, I'm not really a hot item. "Oh, your books are so stunning, I completely understand." It must be nice to get to that place.

It would be considerably worse to go ahead and marry someone, only to learn later that his or her last five spouses died mysterious deaths. Other that the usual things, you should always, always, always find out what will happen if the two of you prove incompatible, and what happens to any work she's already sold.

Now, any good contract should answer most questions you have, but there's nothing at all wrong with asking questions the contract doesn't cover.

In truth, you aren't getting married, you're hiring someone to represent you in business deals with publishers. It's a money matter, and wrong choices can affect you for years to come.

victoriastrauss · Jul 3, 2005

I would never sign an author-agent agreement that didn't allow me to terminate at will, with or without cause, by giving 30-90 day notice--no matter how big and successful the agency was.

That said, it would be pretty unusual for an established agency to offer a contract without a termination option. This really is a pretty basic component of an author-agent agreement. Are you sure about this? Have you actually seen the contract?

- Victoria

Jamesaritchie · Jul 3, 2005

contract

victoriastrauss That said said:
I've never seen a contract from a legitimate agent that didn't have a termination clause that allowed the writer to leave with notice. I certainly wouldn't sign such a contract, no matter who the agent might be.

Tish Davidson · Jul 3, 2005

I can attest that sometimes things just don't work out. My first book was represented by a legit medium large NY agent. She pitched it to about a dozen big publishers and collected some truly glowing rejections (seriously, if they had been reviews, I would have been thrilled). The gist of it was that they liked the book, they thought I could write, but gee, they weren't sure they could make any money on it. This agent, it turned out, was not interested in pitching the book to smaller publishers, so we amicably parted ways based on a 30 notice clause in the contract. Sometimes stuff happens. Sometimes agents leave agencies, and you want to go with the agent - or you prefer to stay with the agency and not leave. Anyway you look at it, you should have an out.

aruna · Jul 4, 2005

I agree with everyone else said. Though I got along fine with my agent for six years, and she made some great deals for me, I decided it was the parting of the ways a few months ago. I wrote a simple letter, and that was it. She is not selling any more books for me, but the ones she DID sell will still be managed by her, her agency collects the royalties for those books, take their cut, etc. The notice there is 60 days, but it was irrelevant as she was not selling anything for me. I would never sign for a two year notice period. I wouldnever have dreamt I'd leave this agent, but things do happen. You must definitly clear this point before signing up.

Mistook · Jul 4, 2005

I'm naive to this system, so bear with me, but...

Let's say you've got Publisher X, who likes your agency, but they don't like you.

Meanwhile, Publisher Y, loves you, but they don't work with your agency.

90 days is three long months you'll have to sit on your hands before going to Y. And who knows if Y will still be interested by then? But if that's the standard, then that's the chance you'd have to take.

But two years?

How could an agency possibly back that up? Nobody controls the market. It's impossible for an agency to "guarantee" that one of their publishers will take you. I mean, if anything, it sounds like they have to demand that kind of loyalty because they really aren't very well connected.

Jaws · Jul 4, 2005

If you're dealing with a reputable agency, that won't happen with a reputable publisher. It's the agency's job to make sure that it doesn't. If, instead, you end up with an agency that's on a potentially appropriate publisher's "black list," I'd bet there are other warning signs that it's not a reputable agency out there.

There's a big difference between a publisher "not liking" and a publisher "refusing to deal." Look at it this way: If the publisher thinks the book will be profitable, unless you (personally) have a long track record of being impossible to work with, the publisher will grit its collective teeth and try to find a way to work it out. It may not like dealing with your agent; but then, I don't like litigating against Jones Day. That doesn't mean I can force my opponent to change his/her/its choice of counsel! Believe it or not, reputable publishers do understand this, regardless of their grumbling.

Tish Davidson · Jul 4, 2005

Mistook said:
I'm naive to this system, so bear with me, but...

Let's say you've got Publisher X, who likes your agency, but they don't like you.

Meanwhile, Publisher Y, loves you, but they don't work with your agency.

90 days is three long months you'll have to sit on your hands before going to Y. And who knows if Y will still be interested by then? But if that's the standard, then that's the chance you'd have to take.

But two years?

How could an agency possibly back that up? Nobody controls the market. It's impossible for an agency to "guarantee" that one of their publishers will take you. I mean, if anything, it sounds like they have to demand that kind of loyalty because they really aren't very well connected.

Publisher and agent are in business to make money. Liking has nothing to do with in. They figure out a way to get along professionally even if personally they hate each others guts. It's all about the money potential of the project.

Nateskate · Jul 4, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
I would never sign an author-agent agreement that didn't allow me to terminate at will, with or without cause, by giving 30-90 day notice--no matter how big and successful the agency was.

That said, it would be pretty unusual for an established agency to offer a contract without a termination option. This really is a pretty basic component of an author-agent agreement. Are you sure about this? Have you actually seen the contract?

- Victoria

Thanks everyone. I may have misunderstood what I read. And the 90 day provision might apply, and I just don't know. They are in ??? 2005 guide to agents??? So, they had to have been screened pretty well. I know they don't list bad agencies, and list some pretty stringent guidlines to agents in the book.

But, I'll take everyone's advice, and appreciate it very much.

Nateskate · Jul 4, 2005

Well, the other thing is that both would represent me as a YA fantasy. And I've said before, I think it could go either way. Why in the world I chose a fifteen year old protagonist (for the series) in the first place escapes me. I guess I wanted to portray a Frodo-like situation, without using hobbits. But in retrospect, although this opened doors, it also means I lose the option to go with adult fantasy.

Both work with YA, but I know the one doesn't do Adult fantasy at all, and the other doesn't on a regular basis. So, there is some degree of risk. They both said, "YA" is the way to go, and it seems from what I see, it could be. However, the length of book two then comes into question. But if book one sells, I guess book two will take care of itself. I thought it was done, but if they'd want me to shorten it, I could. It would just stretch out the series.

I know there are other fish in the sea, but again, it could be like the dog who sees his reflection, and going for a bigger bone, leaves him boneless. I'm jumping ahead of myself some. If they want to sign me in the first place, then that would mean they saw it had potential to succeed in the YA marketplace. They wouldn't sign me if that's not the case, and then all this talk would be moot. Knowing their track record, it's pretty weird of me worrying that they'll end up stuck with my story, and I'll be sitting on my hands for two years. I should be hoping they don't say, "You're not our type."

victoriastrauss · Jul 4, 2005

Nateskate said:
They are in ??? 2005 guide to agents??? So, they had to have been screened pretty well. I know they don't list bad agencies, and list some pretty stringent guidlines to agents in the book

Is this Jeff Herman's book? If so, it's one of the best, IMO. However, don't assume that just because the agency is in there it's legit. Jeff has listed some major scammers and turkeys in the past, including the notorious Robins Agency.

There's not a single print market guide out there (that I know of) that doesn't have a few bad agents in it. Still, the print guides are a better resource than most online guides, which tend to be much less reliable and up to date.

If you want to know what Writer Beware knows about these agencies, drop me a line: [email protected] .

- Victoria

PattiTheWicked · Jul 4, 2005

Mistook said:
Let's say you've got Publisher X, who likes your agency, but they don't like you.

Meanwhile, Publisher Y, loves you, but they don't work with your agency.

I don't care if publishers OR agents like me. I just want them to decide they can sell my book.

Nateskate · Jul 5, 2005

victoriastrauss said:
Is this Jeff Herman's book? If so, it's one of the best, IMO. However, don't assume that just because the agency is in there it's legit. Jeff has listed some major scammers and turkeys in the past, including the notorious Robins Agency.

There's not a single print market guide out there (that I know of) that doesn't have a few bad agents in it. Still, the print guides are a better resource than most online guides, which tend to be much less reliable and up to date.

If you want to know what Writer Beware knows about these agencies, drop me a line: [email protected] .

- Victoria

Thanks. I emailed you the agent names and the agencies they work for. I'm pretty sure they are on the up and up. Still, it would be nice to hear someone confirm that.

jules · Jul 5, 2005

Sorry for changing the subject, but this perplexed me:

Nateskate said:
Why in the world I chose a fifteen year old protagonist (for the series) in the first place escapes me [...] it also means I lose the option to go with adult fantasy.

Huh? There are plenty of adult fantasy books out there with young protagonists. David Edding's Belgariad, for instance. I don't see why this should make any difference at all -- it's what the book's about, and what its themes are that makes the difference, not the age of the protagonist.

Nateskate · Jul 5, 2005

jules said:
Sorry for changing the subject, but this perplexed me:

Huh? There are plenty of adult fantasy books out there with young protagonists. David Edding's Belgariad, for instance. I don't see why this should make any difference at all -- it's what the book's about, and what its themes are that makes the difference, not the age of the protagonist.

It came out different than I meant it. It was a fortunate thing that I didn't plan. It may open doors that never would have been opened had I used an older protagonist. In my origional prototype, the protagonist was between twenty and thirty. It's a serious story, but there are some whimsical elements all the way through. I even wondered if I'd lose my audience in book one, because the animals talked before the darkening of the minds. In so many ways it seemed like I was unintentionally writing a YA fantasy all along.

Mistook · Jul 5, 2005

PattiTheWicked said:
I don't care if publishers OR agents like me. I just want them to decide they can sell my book.

Well by that I meant, they don't like or can't use your manuscript.

As for agencies I didn't understand the situation. I figured it was along the lines of temp agencies, where certain employers just don't hire out of this or that pool.

Nateskate · Jul 9, 2005

Mistook said:
Well by that I meant, they don't like or can't use your manuscript.

As for agencies I didn't understand the situation. I figured it was along the lines of temp agencies, where certain employers just don't hire out of this or that pool.

This is piggy-backed to the whole conversation about agents liking or just seeing you as a product.

I'm not particularly thick-skinned. I'm kind of hoping for an agent that likes me, and that I like. I can tell you from experience, it pays to have someone who is willing to go the extra mile for you. Some might do that for themselves "for money", but there are some people who will do far more someone they care for. They can't stand the thought of letting you down and will make those one or two extra phone calls. It becomes personal.

Contracts-

Nateskate

Jamesaritchie

Nateskate

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

Jamesaritchie

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

Jamesaritchie

Tish Davidson

aruna

On a wing and a prayer

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Jaws

Apex Predator

Tish Davidson

Nateskate

Nateskate

victoriastrauss

Writer Beware Goddess

PattiTheWicked

Unleashing Hell.

Nateskate

jules

Bored fanatic

Nateskate

Mistook

Neverending WIP

Nateskate