Dialog

DeZertFairy · Jul 1, 2005

Hello, Im new to the boards but I have an awful time with the dialog in my novel! Ive always struggled with this, and I think its because I think too hard about it! I know how I want the scene to go, but I get confused when Im trying to distinguish which character is speaking. He/she said... Mike replied... ect.
My question is... is there an easy formula or what not to make it easier for the conversation to run smoothly without confusing the reader of who is speaking??

Here is an example of a part of the dialog Ive been working on:
"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered, so softly he hadn’t caught it at first.

"What?" He asked and slowly turned to face her once more.

"I said, That must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin was dumbfounded. Never before had she believed him upon the first telling of the story. "So, you believe me?"

Meg slowly nodded, "Its hard to believe, I mean, but it dose make sense and something feels right about the story." She shook her head, as if to clear it. "I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?" He asked her then, and took a step toward her.

Meg shook her head, "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me tho!"

Thank you so much for any help you can give me

Garpy · Jul 1, 2005

I tend to avoid he said/she said. What I do to suggest who has said a line of dialog is have the character perform a small action eg:

Ryan yawned, 'yeah I s'pose I'll go with you.'

But I don't do that too often. usually I'll allow two or three lines of dialog to go before 'reminding' the reader who's who, by throwing one of these little actions in. And very occasionally, I'll shove in a 'he said'.

Hope that helps

Perks · Jul 1, 2005

Garpy said:
I tend to avoid he said/she said. What I do to suggest who has said a line of dialog is have the character perform a small action eg:

Ryan yawned, 'yeah I s'pose I'll go with you.'

But I don't do that too often. usually I'll allow two or three lines of dialog to go before 'reminding' the reader who's who, by throwing one of these little actions in. And very occasionally, I'll shove in a 'he said'.

Hope that helps

Well, that was just about what I was going to say. These little actions identify the speaker and they are a great way to show personality traits of your characters. Also, act it out in your head, or even better out loud. When you can do this in privacy really let yourself go. It's great fun and your dialogues will seem much more natural.

Tish Davidson · Jul 1, 2005

DeZertFairy said:
Hello, Im new to the boards but I have an awful time with the dialog in my novel! Ive always struggled with this, and I think its because I think too hard about it! I know how I want the scene to go, but I get confused when Im trying to distinguish which character is speaking. He/she said... Mike replied... ect.
My question is... is there an easy formula or what not to make it easier for the conversation to run smoothly without confusing the reader of who is speaking??

Here is an example of a part of the dialog Ive been working on:
"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered, so softly he hadn’t caught it at first.

"What?" He asked and slowly turned to face her once more.

"I said, That must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin was dumbfounded. Never before had she believed him upon the first telling of the story. "So, you believe me?"

Meg slowly nodded, "Its hard to believe, I mean, but it dose make sense and something feels right about the story." She shook her head, as if to clear it. "I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?" He asked her then, and took a step toward her.

Meg shook her head, "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me tho!"

Thank you so much for any help you can give me

Suggestions:
Cut out a lot of the actions described between the dialog. It makes it move along faster, more like people really talk.
Reduce the dialog to essentials
Don't routinely tell the reader how the speaker feels (e.g. He was dumbfounded).
You don't have to tag each line with the speaker or an action, especially if only two people are talking.
Read the scene aloud. That's the best gauge of whether youf dialog is working.

"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered.

"What?"

"I said, that must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

"You believe me?" He had told her this stoy before, but she had always treated it as fiction.

Meg nodded, "Its hard to believe, but something feels right about it."

[Note: this didn't make sense to me in the original. If she had heard this story before, and not believed it, why would something suddenly feel right about it now]

He moved toward her. "Be honest, do I repulse you?"

Meg shook her head, "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me though!"

Susan Gable · Jul 1, 2005

Tish Davidson said:
"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered.

"What?"

"I said, that must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

"You believe me?" He had told her this stoy before, but she had always treated it as fiction.

Meg nodded, "Its hard to believe, but something feels right about it."

[Note: this didn't make sense to me in the original. If she had heard this story before, and not believed it, why would something suddenly feel right about it now]

He moved toward her. "Be honest, do I repulse you?"

Meg shook her head, "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me though!"

This is much better, but may I be a grammar stickler? If the speaker is doing an action, you need a period between it and the actual dialog. If it's a dialog tag (he said, she asked, she whispered) then you need a comma. So some of the lines listed above need corrections.

"That must have been terrible for you," (COMMA) Meg whispered.

"What?"

"I said, that must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

"You believe me?" He had told her this stoy before, but she had always treated it as fiction.

Meg nodded. PERIOD "Its hard to believe, but something feels right about it."

He moved toward her. "Be honest, do I repulse you?"

Meg shook her head. PERIOD "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me though!"

Sammy · Jul 1, 2005

DeZertFairy, I'm still crap at dialogue, so can't help you myself -- but if you haven't found it yet, do check out the 'Learn writing with Uncle Jim' thread. I'm still working through it, and learning a lot (about dialogue, and a million other things).

Oh, and Tish, I'm betting that this part:

"I said, That must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin was dumbfounded. Never before had she believed him upon the first telling of the story. "So, you believe me?"

indicates that the story is based on an amnesia/50 First Dates kind of scenario, in which case your rewrite here doesn't work so well.

maestrowork · Jul 1, 2005

Yup, seems like you just add too many actions between the dialogue, making it choppy and hard to read sometimes. All the nodded, smiled, moved, turned, sat... if they're not necessary, cut. You want your dialogue to flow well and sound natural, and not interrupted every 5 seconds by a "turned" and "nodded." Only add the action when it's essential to show: 1) character's reaction to something said; 2) character contemplating doing or saying something; 3) when the action *develops* the character.

PattiTheWicked · Jul 1, 2005

Sometimes I'll stick a couple of lines in there without even bothering with the he said/she said. I mean, you should almost always be able to tell by context. If two people are talking, it shouldn't be hard to follow. Like this:

"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered, so softly he hadn’t caught it at first.

"What?" (Obviously this is the guy speaking, because the preceding sentence indicates that he hadn't heard her the first time.)

"I said, That must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin was dumbfounded. Never before had she believed him upon the first telling of the story. "So, you believe me?" (I'm not sure I understand this part here, but that's okay.)

"Its hard to believe, admittedly." She shook her head, as if to clear it. "I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?"

"No." She shook her head. "You scare the hell out of me, but you don't repulse me."

Just my nickel's worth.

maestrowork · Jul 1, 2005

OK, I don't usually rewrite what other people's work, but for demonstration purposes, I'd make an exception:

Original:

"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered, so softly he hadn’t caught it at first.

"What?" He asked and slowly turned to face her once more.

"I said, That must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin was dumbfounded. Never before had she believed him upon the first telling of the story. "So, you believe me?"

Meg slowly nodded, "Its hard to believe, I mean, but it dose make sense and something feels right about the story." She shook her head, as if to clear it. "I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?" He asked her then, and took a step toward her.

Meg shook her head, "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me tho!"

New (cut out repetitions, unnecessary tags and actions, duplicate words, etc.):

"That must have been terrible for you," Meg whispered.

"What?"

"I said, that must have been terrible for you. For her - for me. To reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin scratched his head. "So, you believe me?"

"I mean, it does make sense and something feels right about the story. I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?"

"No." She shook her head. "But you scare the hell out of me."

Tish Davidson · Jul 1, 2005

Know something, Susan, I think you're being petty with the grammar sthick. I re-wrote the dialog (or do you want me to spell it dialogue?) off the top of my head to show how it could be moved along and to address the question that was asked (which was not about punctiation). I did it by cutting and pasting the original, which had plenty of errors of its own. Okay, we're writers, so we should pay attention to grammar, punctuation, etc. But I don't think it helps the tone of the board to play grammar Nazi when people are trying to help. Next time I'll just let you answer the poster.

Susan Gable said:
This is much better, but may I be a grammar stickler? If the speaker is doing an action, you need a period between it and the actual dialog. If it's a dialog tag (he said, she asked, she whispered) then you need a comma. So some of the lines listed above need corrections.

"That must have been terrible for you," (COMMA) Meg whispered.

"What?"

"I said, that must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

"You believe me?" He had told her this stoy before, but she had always treated it as fiction.

Meg nodded. PERIOD "Its hard to believe, but something feels right about it."

He moved toward her. "Be honest, do I repulse you?"

Meg shook her head. PERIOD "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me though!"

Jamesaritchie · Jul 1, 2005

Dialogue

maestrowork said:
OK, I don't usually rewrite what other people's work, but for demonstration purposes, I'd make an exception:

Original:

New (cut out repetitions, unnecessary tags and actions, duplicate words, etc.):

"That must have been terrible for you," Meg whispered.

"What?"

"I said, that must have been terrible for you. For her - for me. To reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin scratched his head. "So, you believe me?"

"I mean, it does make sense and something feels right about the story. I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?"

"No." She shook her head. "But you scare the hell out of me."

I like this. I think it's a great rewrite. All the needless clutter is gone, and everything is not only much faster, but easier to understand.

Jamesaritchie · Jul 1, 2005

Dialogue

DeZertFairy said:
Hello, Im new to the boards but I have an awful time with the dialog in my novel! Ive always struggled with this, and I think its because I think too hard about it! I know how I want the scene to go, but I get confused when Im trying to distinguish which character is speaking. He/she said... Mike replied... ect.
My question is... is there an easy formula or what not to make it easier for the conversation to run smoothly without confusing the reader of who is speaking??

Here is an example of a part of the dialog Ive been working on:
"That must have been terrible for you." Meg whispered, so softly he hadn’t caught it at first.

"What?" He asked and slowly turned to face her once more.

"I said, That must have been terrible for you. For her - for me - to reject you so many times over the years."

Gavin was dumbfounded. Never before had she believed him upon the first telling of the story. "So, you believe me?"

Meg slowly nodded, "Its hard to believe, I mean, but it dose make sense and something feels right about the story." She shook her head, as if to clear it. "I don’t know why I believe it, but I do."

"Be honest with me, do I repulse you?" He asked her then, and took a step toward her.

Meg shook her head, "No, you don’t repulse me. You scare the hell out of me tho!"

Thank you so much for any help you can give me

Once characters are identified, stick to he said/she said whenever possible. When possible, use nothing. Keep the clutter to a minimum. Read maestrowork's example. It's very good.

"He said/she said, when used right, are nearly invisible. Using anything else too often gets old real fast.

reph · Jul 1, 2005

Remember, people sometimes whisper words, but they never yawn them. Nobody can yawn a line of dialogue. Yawning isn't a way of making words come out of one's mouth. The same goes for smiling, laughing, shrugging, and all the other bodily actions that writers sometimes think can replace saying.

katiemac · Jul 1, 2005

I don't mean to speak for Susan, but I don't believe she made the rewrite to reflect poorly on anyone. Tish, I've known your posts in the past, and you have always been helpful. I don't think anyone who frequents the boards could take your post as otherwise.

It's not uncommon to make mistakes, and I believe Susan was trying to clarify the punctuation, which appeared in the original, so grammar newbies are made aware.

Mistook · Jul 1, 2005

katiemac said:
I don't mean to speak for Susan, but I don't believe she made the rewrite to reflect poorly on anyone. Tish, I've known your posts in the past, and you have always been helpful. I don't think anyone who frequents the boards could take your post as otherwise.

It's not uncommon to make mistakes, and I believe Susan was trying to clarify the punctuation, which appeared in the original, so grammar newbies are made aware.

I don't know that anybody's come out and clearly addressed the point of those punctuation changes. There's an important difference between -

She laughed, "That's crazy!"

and

She laughed. "That's crazy!"

The first version indicates that she litterally laughed out the words, which is tough for a person to do.

The second version says that she laughed first, finished her laugh, and then spoke the words.

reph · Jul 1, 2005

Mistook said:
I don't know that anybody's come out and clearly addressed the point of those punctuation changes. There's an important difference between -

She laughed, "That's crazy!"

and

She laughed. "That's crazy!"

Yes, I tried to address that, using "yawned" as one of the troublesome verbs.

Tish Davidson · Jul 1, 2005

katiemac said:
I don't mean to speak for Susan, but I don't believe she made the rewrite to reflect poorly on anyone. Tish, I've known your posts in the past, and you have always been helpful. I don't think anyone who frequents the boards could take your post as otherwise.

It's not uncommon to make mistakes, and I believe Susan was trying to clarify the punctuation, which appeared in the original, so grammar newbies are made aware.

It was my understanding that civility on this board dictated that people ignore obvious errors unrelated to the topic under discussion. I felt Susan violated that. I've been on boards where people hack away at each other for typos. I don't want to see that happen here.

Mistook · Jul 1, 2005

Tish Davidson said:
It was my understanding that civility on this board dictated that people ignore obvious errors unrelated to the topic under discussion. I felt Susan violated that. I've been on boards where people hack away at each other for typos. I don't want to see that happen here.

I once got offended when that happened to me. I posted a passage of prose to ask about esoteric things like the wording and the flow, the imagery, etc. I got the old "its vs it's" lecture.

But ya know... I got over it. And to tell you the truth, that was the night I finally memorized the difference between its and it's. You can't really fault useful information from popping up in the wrong context.

I'll agree, hacking at typos is childish, but I don't think it's running rampant out here. Well, not that rampant anyway. There's been a weird influx lately of anti-establishment writers who are trying to taut "Illiteracy" as some kind of badge of honor. I'm pretty much an uneducated bum, but even I know that's not good.

Not to say that's what's happening here. But maybe everybody's a bit on edge lately.

DeZertFairy · Jul 1, 2005

Wow... I cant even begin to thank you all enough for taking the time to help me with this! Im terrible with punctuation, and a lot of it is because I get going to fast, trying to get the story out that I just over look a lot of it! I agree that punctuation is important and belive me, I want to use it correctly, however for a first draft its not my #1 priority.
I agree with all of you that my dialogue becomes cluttered, and I really appriciate all the opinions expressed here! I think I like the way Maestrowork worded it best. What I'd written still comes across the way I intended it, but without the clutter.
BTW in the story... its not a 50 first dates type of thing.. but more of a reincarnation type thing. Hard to explain without going into a lot of detail... I just wish I could, for once in my life, come up with a SIMPLE plot LOL
~Dez

Mistook · Jul 1, 2005

DeZertFairy said:
Wow... I cant even begin to thank you all enough for taking the time to help me with this! Im terrible with punctuation, and a lot of it is because I get going to fast, trying to get the story out that I just over look a lot of it! I agree that punctuation is important and belive me, I want to use it correctly, however for a first draft its not my #1 priority.
I agree with all of you that my dialogue becomes cluttered, and I really appriciate all the opinions expressed here! I think I like the way Maestrowork worded it best. What I'd written still comes across the way I intended it, but without the clutter.
BTW in the story... its not a 50 first dates type of thing.. but more of a reincarnation type thing. Hard to explain without going into a lot of detail... I just wish I could, for once in my life, come up with a SIMPLE plot LOL
~Dez

RE: simple plot - I just started a thread to deal with this problem, as it seems there's a lot of writers here who seem to be dreaming up really convoluted plots, including me.

katiemac · Jul 1, 2005

It was my understanding that civility on this board dictated that people ignore obvious errors unrelated to the topic under discussion. I felt Susan violated that.

I'm sorry you felt that way. Apparently a few members did feel the topics linked, and therefore felt it was appropriate to mention.

I've been on boards where people hack away at each other for typos. I don't want to see that happen here.

This is a good point you've made. I have recognized this behavior even on these forums. Criticizing members for poor spelling and grammar anywhere other than the SYW forum is unnecessary. Like you, I hate to see it. However, I still do not think that was the intention of the response made to your post, but rather to help others understand the particularities of grammar while using dialogue.

Anyway, I don't want to involve myself further until Susan has a chance to revisit the thread.

I do hope we'll be able to ease back on-topic. I'd hate to see this go to TIO, although I think we're a long way from that.

maestrowork · Jul 2, 2005

Mistook said:
RE: simple plot - I just started a thread to deal with this problem, as it seems there's a lot of writers here who seem to be dreaming up really convoluted plots, including me.

Yeah, it's a common problem with novice and pros alike. They think to make the story interesting and exciting, they have to a lot of different things going on, and they have to be clever... etc. what I call the "Mission Impossible" syndrome (remember the first movie with Tom Cruise? Talk about convoluted plot).

Jamesaritchie · Jul 2, 2005

Typos

I do think there's a difference between nitpicking typos and nitpicking grammar. We all make typos. I make many. But since grammar and punctuation are the top tools in any writer's toolbox, I see no harm in point out mistakes there.

There's no reason to be nasty about it, but when a writer makes mistakes such as its/it's, or doesn't know how to use a comma, or thinks "alot" is a word, I see no harm in pointing such things out.

There's no reason to be nasty about it, but such things are important. A writer who makes such mistakes in a query letter/synopsis is probably going nowhere, and it takes only a few such mistakes to make anyone stop reading a manuscript.

I don't think anyone points out such mistakes to be mean, or to show off, but only in an attempt to be helpful. It's all in how it's taken. Instead of being offended, I think it's best to learn from such things and get it right next time.

reph · Jul 2, 2005

I agree with Jamesaritchie (and I don't always). If you see a newbie making a big mistake of another kind, there's no stigma on saying so. Maybe the person posts to ask a question about prologues and incidentally mentions that she's found a good agent who charges only $300 to read her manuscript. Won't you jump in and say "Hold on there, I gotta tell you something about agents"?

So this time a newbie asks a question about agents, but the post is full of "alot" and "didnt" and "potatoe." You can see that she'll need to work on the basics of English before she can write anything salable. Are you doing her a favor by withholding that information? Are you even being honest?

AncientEagle · Jul 2, 2005

reph said:
So this time a newbie asks a question about agents, but the post is full of "alot" and "didnt" and "potatoe."

I dint see alot about potatos in their.

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