Why does my prof consider 'Fantasy' to be crap? - Discussion

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

Hi,

I am just finising my second year at Uni doing an English with Creative Writing degree. I'm a mature student and have spent the better part of my life reading fantasy and sci fi novels and love the genre. However, I'm having problems at Uni because as far as I can gather fantasy isn't perceived particularly well.

Now, I've had to complete a portfolio this summer and because of this 'dislike' for fantasy I decided to write a short story based in ancient Greece where a young grave robber has a 'near death' experience and spends a time next to the river styx while those who have had their payments to Charon stolen from their mouths are a little annoyed with him and force him back. He then has to decide whether to make amends or carry on as normal brushing the experience off as a mere dream due to the knock on the head.

Anway, one of the people who have read the story said it was 'crap' because of the fact it's fantasy. Because the lad has an out of body experience it is classed as fantasy in his eyes. So now I'm concerned that because I am a big lover of the genre my dissertation next year will fall flat on it's arse because I intend to write fantasy/sci fi. Despite millions of books selling every year in this genre a lot of people can't see past it and think each fantasy text is a pastiche on all the others.

So, why is this?

My argument is that 'any' genre has a set form and structure it follows to fit in that genre and although an author may change some part of that form/structure it will still remain in that genre unless all forms are broken, but then it'll end up in a different genre anyway and share cliche's.

Had I placed the same story within a modern day, hard boiled crime novel then the modern version of an out of body experience, following the white light or similar, would not make the story a fantasy.

Or if my non fantasy story that is classed as 'quite good' would automatically be classed as 'crap' if I altered even the smallest part of it and added a 'fantastically' perceived element to it.

I just don't understand what I can do. I want to write fantasy but I can't see anyway of doing so without it being marked lower just because it's fantasy.

Any ideas on this?

Fenika · Aug 16, 2009

Change majors.

The bigwigs that judge, I mean grade, you have seen many a fantasy writer come through. And they've crushed them all. You're not going to change an old dogs mind.

And you don't need any kind of english major to be a good writer.

Of course, you could keep english and run from creative writing. Or transfer schools next year.

Sage · Aug 16, 2009

There is a snobbery held by some academics against anything that's not literary or mainstream. I've never taken any college writing courses, but several of my friends did, and one of them was a fantasy writer who always felt ostracized in her classes because of people's reaction to fantasy. In her case, the professor was often included in this snobbery.

But perhaps this is a case of the professor's views influencing the other students. I know in my major (environmental studies), once we lost the environmental science professors, I suddenly was the only one in my year interested in the science aspect. The head of the department and the intro classes all focused on the social science aspects. I can imagine that if a professor or a department is telling people that one form of literature is "good" and therefore the other is not, even if it's shown by example, not by saying one's better, the same sort of thing could happen.

But not every department is the same. Not every professor or department will scoff at fantasy. Just because one person has that opinion, unless that person is going to be reviewing your work for a final grade, I wouldn't worry about what they say about genre.

In theory, a professor should be able to see a good novel and grade it because it's good, even if it's not in their preferred genre. But being human too, it's easy to see how they might get influenced by genre.

And it's sad, and I don't have any answers for you.

I believe my friend wrote her senior writing project for fantasy all the same. She didn't mention feeling like she was graded down for it when we talked about her discomfort in her classes.

MattW · Aug 16, 2009

I'm sure there are many who can speak to this better than I can, but I think there is an attitude in some sectors of academia that what is popular cannot be studied. It spills over to critics (many of whom have come through the academic mill) - King is only just starting to receive credit for a distinguished career, even though most literary critics won't have much good to say about his writing.

It's no small measure of pretentiousness, either. I encountered it in my writing courses as well. fantasy was put down as something for kids, and not tackling challenging topics, and not having deep characters. No doubt some of that is true, but it doesn't do the genres justice for the true depth they have, and the evolution that has taken place over decades since pulp fantasy ruled.

On the flip side, I can stereotype most literary fiction as masturbatory. And some of it surely is.

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

I've got to stick it out unfortunately. Been years in the doing and had I not wanted to do creative writing I'd have taken a history degree so I'm sticking with it.

It annoys me that the first fantasy short story I wrote last year the lecturer wrote that he may be marking me down because of the genre rather than my actual work. I was WTF??? Anyway, I went to see the module leader after I realised that I wasn't doing too well and he said to me 'Why are you here if you want to write fantasy and not out there writing?'

Anyway, I don't understand why people don't like fantasy but I can still read a genre I'm not keen on and tell the difference between a good story and bad story in that genre. My problem is I can't tell from them if it's the fact my stories are crap or whether they are crap because they are fantasy.

Sage · Aug 16, 2009

Any chance, there's a point in a class somewhere where you can bring that up? That even though you prefer fantasy or you don't like another genre, you can still judge a good story in it? (Not directly calling out the prof, just giving him food for thought)

I had the intro writing class freshman year, and it was about pop culture, so we analyzed movies and ads and internet, etc. For my movie paper, I used The Fifth Element. Every single draft I did, he was like, "This isn't exactly a mainstream movie. I'll probably have to take that into account, so you might want to rethink which movie you're using." But I liked the paper, and I wasn't going to write a new one from scratch, so I used it anyway.

I got an A on it despite his comments (though he still wrote that he wished I had used a more mainstream movie in my comments).

<crosses fingers for you>

ChaosTitan · Aug 16, 2009

MattW said:
I'm sure there are many who can speak to this better than I can, but I think there is an attitude in some sectors of academia that what is popular cannot be studied. It spills over to critics (many of whom have come through the academic mill) - King is only just starting to receive credit for a distinguished career, even though most literary critics won't have much good to say about his writing.

It's no small measure of pretentiousness, either. I encountered it in my writing courses as well. fantasy was put down as something for kids, and not tackling challenging topics, and not having deep characters. No doubt some of that is true, but it doesn't do the genres justice for the true depth they have, and the evolution that has taken place over decades since pulp fantasy ruled.

On the flip side, I can stereotype most literary fiction as masturbatory. And some of it surely is.

QFT.

It's quite perplexing, and I truly don't have an answer for why. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but one's opinion on genre should not interfere with one's ability to lead an objective classroom. Your professor's job is to teach and help you grow and learn, not to judge you based on your genre preference.

Most literary novels, both classic and modern, bore me to death. It's why I read and write Spec fic.

ChaosTitan · Aug 16, 2009

Sage - I'm curious. What would he consider a "mainstream" movie? The Fifth Element was a wide release blockbuster, with named stars and it made lots of money. Pretty mainstream to me.

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

Sage said:
Any chance, there's a point in a class somewhere where you can bring that up? That even though you prefer fantasy or you don't like another genre, you can still judge a good story in it? (Not directly calling out the prof, just giving him food for thought)

I had the intro writing class freshman year, and it was about pop culture, so we analyzed movies and ads and internet, etc. For my movie paper, I used The Fifth Element. Every single draft I did, he was like, "This isn't exactly a mainstream movie. I'll probably have to take that into account, so you might want to rethink which movie you're using." But I liked the paper, and I wasn't going to write a new one from scratch, so I used it anyway.

I got an A on it despite his comments (though he still wrote that he wished I had used a more mainstream movie in my comments).

<crosses fingers for you>

Unfortunately classes are out for this year and this is a portfolio I was supposed to have written earlier in the year but I've had family issues to contend with and didn't get it in, in time. I did raise this at the start of year and last year and was told that to write fantasy I have to break the mould and do something that hasn't been done before but to be honest, I can't think of anything that hasn't yet been done in one form or another. Even when I've come up with an idea I think is original I find it's already been done.

MattW · Aug 16, 2009

Some SFF books that won't draw sneers:

1984
Brave New World
Time Machine
One Hundred Years of Solitude
The Name of the Rose
The Tempest
Gulliver's Travels
The Iliad
Canterbury Tales

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
QFT.

It's quite perplexing, and I truly don't have an answer for why. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but one's opinion on genre should not interfere with one's ability to lead an objective classroom. Your professor's job is to teach and help you grow and learn, not to judge you based on your genre preference.

Most literary novels, both classic and modern, bore me to death. It's why I read and write Spec fic.

I agree, there are only a couple of classics I've read in the last two years I've actually enjoyed.

MattW · Aug 16, 2009

Also, though they're not my personal favorite, anything like China Meiville's novels should be able to invoke those thoughts that professors should be looking for.

ChaosTitan · Aug 16, 2009

PhatDad said:
and was told that to write fantasy I have to break the mould and do something that hasn't been done before but to be honest, I can't think of anything that hasn't yet been done in one form or another. Even when I've come up with an idea I think is original I find it's already been done.

Thing is, this is a common problem in ALL genres. There are only so many stories out there, and they've all been told. What makes one book different from another is HOW, WHO, WHEN and WHY.

You can give this premise -- Hero X must travel to Z in order to accomplish Y before G happens -- to six different authors, and you will get six completely different novels. Our heroes won't be the same (heck, mine will probably be a heroine!), their Z, Y and G will all be different and unique. It's all in the execution.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 16, 2009

You're doing a "creative writing" course which at most schools and writing programs is meant to teach you to write the sort of stuff your teachers write--which, generally speaking, is what marketing dweebs call "literary fiction," or poetry, or "literary essays."

Mostly, the people who teach creative writing are not people who write genre fiction. Or people whose books you'll find in local bookshops where they don't live.

With respect to fantasy as lit--my dissertation is essentially on medieval fantasy stories, with some discussion of modern "urban fantasy." I've published on and taught LOTR, and Emma Bull and several other F and SF writers.

But I was earning a lit degree, not one in creative writing.

Deleted member 42 · Aug 16, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
Sage - I'm curious. What would he consider a "mainstream" movie? The Fifth Element was a wide release blockbuster, with named stars and it made lots of money. Pretty mainstream to me.

That sounds like a T. A. to me, not a prof.

stephenf · Aug 16, 2009

Not sure your generalisation of academia is totally true, Lord of the Rings was written by a academic. I think what you are really experiencing is snobbery.There has always been snobbery towards certain writing genres and I expect we are all guilty.What genre do you dislike?. We all have different tastes, except some think that there taste represents a position of superiority.

Fenika · Aug 16, 2009

PhatDad said:
I've got to stick it out unfortunately. Been years in the doing and had I not wanted to do creative writing I'd have taken a history degree so I'm sticking with it.

I'm gonna repeat myself here.

You pay them.

You're the client.

They are acting like the stereotypical Walmart employees.

Stop banging your head against the wall. They will not teach you what you want to learn.

Either adopt their standards or shop elsewhere.

You already have a backup plan of History, even if you didn't take it. Go see if the grass is indeed greener, no?

vfury · Aug 16, 2009

I did a MPhil in Popular Lit, so my modules were mostly based around genre fiction and how it was often looked down upon. Ironically, the course itself wasn't really taken seriously by the rest of the English Department. It was understood that those of us who wanted to pursue PhDs would have the least chance of gaining funding from the college, compared to those who were doing 'proper' literary studies.

A friend of mine did a MA in Creative Writing and she had problems with her tutor disliking fantasy. She tried to ignore that, and concentrated on other things she wanted to learn from them. By the end of her MA, she had a publishing deal for her YA fantasy. The first chapter of her book, that her class and teachers approved of after rewrites, was cut during her round of edits.

Mr Flibble · Aug 16, 2009

What a load of old snobbery bollocks

I sympathise, I really do. But, you want to finish your course. Then you can write what you want and thumb your nose at the Prof

Now, if this were me I'd do a few things. You, obviously, aren't me. But your priority should be to pass. If you can make a clear, reasoned argument that fantasy IS literature, so much the better. But not at the cost of failing your course.

1 - Start a debate about the best selling books of all time. Casually note that the majority are fantasy

2 - Start a debate on Professor Tolkien and how academia and fantasy can go hand and hand, and are not mutually exclusive. Note some themes that classic fantasy has dealt with. And how about some classic authors/ works that are totally fantasy but still regarded well, even by snobs? As noted above, Orwell, Wells, Shakespeare. Ask in an innocent tone if you should not read them because of their fantasy elements?

3 - Turn in a story that has only very subtle fantastical elements ( out of body experiences aren't fantasy. I've had several. Get info on them to present that argument. ) if any. Get that A

4 - When you pass, tell Prof what a tosspot he is.

5 - Write what you like and become mega successful. Laugh at your professor. Use him as your incentive to be bloody brilliant.

6 - Go back to your uni after becoming mega successful and give a talk on 'Fantasy as literature'. Subtitle it 'Literary snobs are evil'

OR wait till they ask you to come back and talk, and say no, because they are all snobs.

But like I say, that would be me. Do what it takes to pass the course if you feel that is what is beneficial to you. If that means keeping your head down, do it. Or, if you feel this course isn't beneficial ( you can still write without a qualification) quit the course.

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

vfury said:
A friend of mine did a MA in Creative Writing and she had problems with her tutor disliking fantasy. She tried to ignore that, and concentrated on other things she wanted to learn from them. By the end of her MA, she had a publishing deal for her YA fantasy. The first chapter of her book, that her class and teachers approved of after rewrites, was cut during her round of edits.

I like the sound of that.

There is a lecturer who has a bookcase of fantasy in his office so I may go and have a word with him. The problem is that he doesn't take any of the creative writing modules but specialises in poetry.

I only have one year left of the degree so can't change now and due to finances can't delay obtaining my degree any further. I HAVE to pass next year or I'll be forced to get a job in a fast food minimum wage restaurant.

dclary · Aug 16, 2009

PhatDad said:
Hi,

I am just finising my second year at Uni doing an English with Creative Writing degree. I'm a mature student and have spent the better part of my life reading fantasy and sci fi novels and love the genre. However, I'm having problems at Uni because as far as I can gather fantasy isn't perceived particularly well.

Now, I've had to complete a portfolio this summer and because of this 'dislike' for fantasy I decided to write a short story based in ancient Greece where a young grave robber has a 'near death' experience and spends a time next to the river styx while those who have had their payments to Charon stolen from their mouths are a little annoyed with him and force him back. He then has to decide whether to make amends or carry on as normal brushing the experience off as a mere dream due to the knock on the head.

Anway, one of the people who have read the story said it was 'crap' because of the fact it's fantasy. Because the lad has an out of body experience it is classed as fantasy in his eyes. So now I'm concerned that because I am a big lover of the genre my dissertation next year will fall flat on it's arse because I intend to write fantasy/sci fi. Despite millions of books selling every year in this genre a lot of people can't see past it and think each fantasy text is a pastiche on all the others.

So, why is this?

My argument is that 'any' genre has a set form and structure it follows to fit in that genre and although an author may change some part of that form/structure it will still remain in that genre unless all forms are broken, but then it'll end up in a different genre anyway and share cliche's.

Had I placed the same story within a modern day, hard boiled crime novel then the modern version of an out of body experience, following the white light or similar, would not make the story a fantasy.

Or if my non fantasy story that is classed as 'quite good' would automatically be classed as 'crap' if I altered even the smallest part of it and added a 'fantastically' perceived element to it.

I just don't understand what I can do. I want to write fantasy but I can't see anyway of doing so without it being marked lower just because it's fantasy.

Any ideas on this?

USC's Bachelor's of Narrative Arts includes the following senior level courses:

ENGL 375 Science Fiction
COLT 420 The Fantastic
CLAS 380 Approaches to Myth
COLT 312 Heroes, Myths, and Legends in Literature and the Arts

In fact, most major universities offer courses in in science fiction and fantasy.

What you have to do is one of a couple things:

a) Write what you want to write and be happy with it not matter what anyone else says.

b) Use your professor's time and experience to become a better writer: write the assignments you're given to write, under the guidelines given. You'll be amazed how much better your personal writing will become.

c) Stop whining.

d) Go to a different college. One that teaches sci fi and fantasy.

e) Recognize that it's highly possible that in trying to identify how badly what you wrote was written, your readers glommed onto the genre because it's a softer, more neutral criticism than "this writing really blows."

f) let this be a learning experience for you. Not everyone's going to agree with you. The most popular authors in the world have critics who call them horrible, horrible hacks of writers. So grow an upper lip, stiffen it, and move on.

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

IdiotsRUs said:
What a load of old snobbery bollocks

I sympathise, I really do. But, you want to finish your course. Then you can write what you want and thumb your nose at the Prof

Now, if this were me I'd do a few things. You, obviously, aren't me. But your priority should be to pass. If you can make a clear, reasoned argument that fantasy IS literature, so much the better. But not at the cost of failing your course.

1 - Start a debate about the best selling books of all time. Casually note that the majority are fantasy

2 - Start a debate on Professor Tolkien and how academia and fantasy can go hand and hand, and are not mutually exclusive. Note some themes that classic fantasy has dealt with. And how about some classic authors/ works that are totally fantasy but still regarded well, even by snobs? As noted above, Orwell, Wells, Shakespeare. Ask in an innocent tone if you should not read them because of their fantasy elements?

3 - Turn in a story that has only very subtle fantastical elements ( out of body experiences aren't fantasy. I've had several. Get info on them to present that argument. ) if any. Get that A

4 - When you pass, tell Prof what a tosspot he is.

5 - Write what you like and become mega successful. Laugh at your professor. Use him as your incentive to be bloody brilliant.

6 - Go back to your uni after becoming mega successful and give a talk on 'Fantasy as literature'. Subtitle it 'Literary snobs are evil' OR wait till they ask you to come back and talk, and say no, because they are all snobs.

But like I say, that would be me. Do what it takes to pass the course if you feel that is what is beneficial to you. If that means keeping your head down, do it. Or, if you feel this course isn't beneficial ( you can still write without a qualification) quit the course.

Thanks for the advice. I need to finish as I doubt I'll be able to pay off my student debts with a minimum wage job. My kids would grow obese from eating minimum wage restaurant food I'd be taking home free from my job and my wife would leave me for a guy earning a few extra quid an hour from a city centre swanky restaurant.

Summonere · Aug 16, 2009

Why do academics consider 'Fantasy' to be crap? - Discussion

A few reasons, but mostly this: most of it is crap, and they don't know what they're talking about. Cool, huh? See, the thing is, ninety percent of everything is crap*, but not everyone agrees upon what is and what isn't till things sort and, years later, we discover that we're still reading some pretty old stories, after which we say, hey, this crap isn't all that bad.

But here's another thing: The more levels upon which a piece of fiction works, and the more deeply it touches them, is capable of evoking a sense of the mysterious, the more likely it is to be called literature, and, if done well enough, great literature. And here I mean “literature” in a sense distinct from mere fiction. Most fantasy tells a story and that's it. In fact, most fiction does that, because most fiction is designed to entertain in some pretty straightforward ways. But if in the telling it manages to evoke great and timeless themes that have something deep and meaningful and profound to say about humanity, all the better. Indeed there are fantasy works that do these very things, do them well, and that stand up today to the enjoyment of readers and the scrutiny of critics.

...one of the people who have read the story said it was 'crap' because of the fact it's fantasy

What are we to make of Macbeth's three witches? What are we to make of the ghost in Hamlet? What, for that matter, of the ghosts in the Charles Dickens' classic Scrooge? What of William S. Burroughs' time travel, aliens, and metafictive Cities of the Red Night? What of Italo Calvino's sentient formulaes, Cloven Viscount, or Nonexistent Knight? What of Gogol's Diary of a Madman weirdness, Kafka's buggy Metamorphosis? How about consultation of oracles in Oedipus Rex, or the fantastical sphinx? What of Pynchon's Byron the Bulb or Marry Shelley's manufactured man in Frankenstein? What of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses magical realism, the transformation of Farishta into an archangel? What about Dante's Divine Comedy, with its trip through hell and multiple encounters with the dead?

It annoys me that the first fantasy short story I wrote last year the lecturer wrote that he may be marking me down because of the genre rather than my actual work.

And when it comes time for student evaluation of instructors, you will be marking him down for attitude as opposed to actual work.

-----------------------
* Sturgeon's Law:

He made his original remarks in direct response to attacks against science fiction that used “the worst examples of the field for ammunition”. Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. are crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms do.

PhatDad · Aug 16, 2009

Summonere said:
A few reasons, but mostly this: most of it is crap, and they don't know what they're talking about. Cool, huh? See, the thing is, ninety percent of everything is crap*, but not everyone agrees upon what is and what isn't till things sort and, years later, we discover that we're still reading some pretty old stories, after which we say, hey, this crap isn't all that bad.

But here's another thing: The more levels upon which a piece of fiction works, and the more deeply it touches them, is capable of evoking a sense of the mysterious, the more likely it is to be called literature, and, if done well enough, great literature. And here I mean “literature” in a sense distinct from mere fiction. Most fantasy tells a story and that's it. In fact, most fiction does that, because most fiction is designed to entertain in some pretty straightforward ways. But if in the telling it manages to evoke great and timeless themes that have something deep and meaningful and profound to say about humanity, all the better. Indeed there are fantasy works that do these very things, do them well, and that stand up today to the enjoyment of readers and the scrutiny of critics.

What are we to make of Macbeth's three witches? What are we to make of the ghost in Hamlet? What, for that matter, of the ghosts in the Charles Dickens' classic Scrooge? What of William S. Burroughs' time travel, aliens, and metafictive Cities of the Red Night? What of Italo Calvino's sentient formulaes, Cloven Viscount, or Nonexistent Knight? What of Gogol's Diary of a Madman weirdness, Kafka's buggy Metamorphosis? How about consultation of oracles in Oedipus Rex, or the fantastical sphinx? What of Pynchon's Byron the Bulb or Marry Shelley's manufactured man in Frankenstein? What of Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses magical realism, the transformation of Farishta into an archangel? What about Dante's Divine Comedy, with its trip through hell and multiple encounters with the dead?

And when it comes time for student evaluation of instructors, you will be marking him down for attitude as opposed to actual work.

-----------------------
* Sturgeon's Law:

He made his original remarks in direct response to attacks against science fiction that used “the worst examples of the field for ammunition”. Using the same standards that categorize 90% of science fiction as trash, crud, or crap, it can be argued that 90% of film, literature, consumer goods, etc. are crap. In other words, the claim (or fact) that 90% of science fiction is crap is ultimately uninformative, because science fiction conforms to the same trends of quality as all other artforms do.

Wow, great post thanks. I may add some of those examples to my critical commentary and see what the reply is.

vfury · Aug 16, 2009

PhatDad said:
I like the sound of that.

There is a lecturer who has a bookcase of fantasy in his office so I may go and have a word with him. The problem is that he doesn't take any of the creative writing modules but specialises in poetry.

I only have one year left of the degree so can't change now and due to finances can't delay obtaining my degree any further. I HAVE to pass next year or I'll be forced to get a job in a fast food minimum wage restaurant.

I think having a professor on your side, so to speak, might be a good idea, in case the worst happens and you feel you've been marked down for your love of fantasy. But as IdiotsRUs said, your main priority should be passing your degree with a mark you're happy with.

Have you considered giving magical realism a try? If anyone becomes snobby over that, you can point to Salman Rushdie and point out that he's won the Booker and the Best of the Booker.

Why does my prof consider 'Fantasy' to be crap? - Discussion

PhatDad

Fenika

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

MattW

Company Man

PhatDad

Sage

Our Lady of Parentheticals

ChaosTitan

Around

ChaosTitan

Around

PhatDad

MattW

Company Man

PhatDad

MattW

Company Man

ChaosTitan

Around

Deleted member 42

Deleted member 42

stephenf

Fenika

vfury

Hearts the furrily challenged.

Mr Flibble

They've been very bad, Mr Flibble

PhatDad

dclary

Unabashed Mercenary

PhatDad

Summonere

PhatDad

vfury

Hearts the furrily challenged.