Literary YA

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Stunted

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(I'm sure there are threads about this, but I did a search and came up empty.)

What is literary YA, exactly? What are some pitfalls to avoid of one is writing literary YA? What are some literary YA books that you like?
 

wandergirl

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hi stunted,

my novel is literary YA. It was never an explicit choice -- I just always meant to write a book with many layers, and my natural voice just comes out more literary.

tone is one of the main elements that sets literary apart. but boy, is that term ever hard to describe. in literary, there's more introspection. a slower pace. more description, more expository. an overall deeper feel, which should be apparent from the very first pages. and yes, they usually take longer to read and write -- there's more crafting involved (someone might jump in and argue against me, but I stand by it) right down to a word choice level, somewhere in between writing a scene from a snappy commercial book and a poem. more subtlety. more use of those literary devices you learned in high school -- I had so much fun with symbolism in my book.

almost anything that wins the Printz is literary, at least somewhat. YA books that are undeniably literary are Jellicoe Road, A Certain Slant of Light, Bog Child, The Book Thief, Madapple, Tender Morsels, and the Octavian Nothing duo. there's a vast gray area, for sure. Books like Story of a Girl, Looking for Alaska, Before I Die, etc. really straddle the line of commercial and literary (which is what I hope my book does).

Pitfalls: the main one is including so much description, introspection, and other detail that it bogs down the story. Adult literary can ramble on forever, because in general, grown-ups have a longer attention span than teenagers. But that's why YA literary can be so amazing -- by nature, even the most literary YA book is quicker and more commercial than literary adult books.

hope this helps!
 
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Shady Lane

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wandergirl, as always, hit the nail on the head.

I'd suggest Garret Freymann-Weyr as really the be-all end-all of YA literary fic. She nails the tone.
 

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I was about to create a thread like this--thankfully, you did already! :D

Wandergirl is right on. I like to think that if you pick any random sentence/passage from a ltierary book, it'll probably be well-crafted and something the writer has slaved over for a couple hours.

The characters are very developed in literary. A lot of the plot and consequences are direct results of the character's actions, and they seem to think for themselves. They don't have to be politically correct or anything--many have skewed, offbeat thinking, an unusual perspective on things, etc.

Literary also stresses word choice, sentence structure, rhythm, etc. HOW I LIVE NOW is literary (I think). Sarah Dessen, John Green, Markus Zusack, and Melina Marchetta are all literary YA writers. LOLITA is literary awesome-ness (note the syntax and beat of its first paragraph), and so is THE VIRGIN SUICIDES.
 

Mercurio Cavaldi

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Wandergirl is right. As a literary YA author myself, I've always felt a kinship with books like Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials, Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, Jonathan Stroud's Bartimaeus Trilogy, Michael Ende's The Neverending Story, etc. I remember someone once saying (and I'm paraphrasing here), "Write the best book you can, and if it's too difficult, call it a children's novel." I guess what that means is, a literary YA novel is the same as any other literary novel, but with the freedom YA literature provides.
 
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Torgo

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What is literary YA, exactly? What are some pitfalls to avoid of one is writing literary YA? What are some literary YA books that you like?

Literary YA has two main qualities: well-written and not many laughs. If you've written a depressing story in beautiful prose, congratulations, it's Literary!

Adult Li-Fi is generally recognisable by the fact that it's about middle-aged people having existential or relationship breakdowns. YA Li-Fi can't really do the mid-life crisis, so some sort of terminal illness, drug addiction, abuse legacy, war, or other doomy doomedness can stand in.

Be sure not to include rocket ships, dinosaurs, gorgeous femmes fatales, or any combination thereof. (Actually, please would someone write a book in which dinosaur femmes fatales fly rocket ships?)

Remember: too much genre will drag you out of the Li-Fi arena. Don't impose a mystery structure on the book unless it's kind of obvious and underwhelming: you might accidentally find you've written a compelling detective novel. Don't set your book in the future, unless it's a dull, post-apocalyptic wasteland that gives you plenty of opportunities to remind us what a bad thing climate change/genetic engineering/nuclear war is (but no opportunities for the thrilling interstellar adventures of Tallulah T-Rex, the Mata Hari of the Mesozoic, natch) - you can even call it a 'dystopian fable' if you like. And the past is OK, because 'historical fiction' isn't really a genre.

Hope that helps!
 

Torgo

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Really, why come here and hate? Do you feel better now?

My dear Shady - hate is pitching it a bit strong.

What I'm trying to get at, in a somewhat flippant way, is that Literary - as a label - is not the same sort of thing as SF, suspense fiction, or any other genre which implies certain things about setting, plot or structure. Literary is not a genre, it is a judgement.

What it really implies is that the book you are about to read has gravitas. It is serious and edifying. You are sitting down to your healthy granola and not chocolate-frosted sugar bombs.

The first thing people look for, then, before they make that judgement, is great prose. I do not hate on great prose. I love MT Anderson, and Siobhan Dowd, etc, etc. They are part of what makes life worth living. The second thing is, I am convinced, the absence of too much fun. Please, tell me I'm wrong. Tell me about all the literary fiction that is full of hilarious gags? It would be great to read it.

Too much fun, and you're not reading Literature; you're participating in some form of escapism. (The only way escapism acquires literary gravitas is age.)
 

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Hilarious gags might be what you find fun, but that does not mean it's true for everyone. Nor is every non-literary genre full of them. You mention mystery above. Do you expect to find dinosaur femmes fatales flying rocket ships in your average mystery? That doesn't mean I don't find it fun to try and solve the very serious mystery with the MC.
 

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Don't get hung up on the gags or the dinosaurs, they were what you might describe as examples of things that are uncommon in literary fiction, rather than Necessary Conditions for Everything Else.
 

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Too much fun, and you're not reading Literature; you're participating in some form of escapism. (The only way escapism acquires literary gravitas is age.)

Someone has a chip on their shoulder la la la la la

Fwiw, sff can be literary (whatever the hell that means) just as some so called literary works can have more than a touch of the fantastical to them.
 

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My point was that what you find fun, other people might not. What a fan of literary fiction might find fun, you obviously don't. That's all well and good for your personal tastes, but don't go using it to define a genre.

I am not a big literary fiction reader. It doesn't appeal to me like it appeals to Shady.

On the other hand, erotica or humor writing that, say, focuses on bodily functions as a big chunk of their humor also don't appeal to me. I don't find them fun to read. I'm pretty sure plenty of people do.
 

Torgo

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Fwiw, sff can be literary (whatever the hell that means) just as some so called literary works can have more than a touch of the fantastical to them.

Exactly. Because 'Literary' isn't about genre. It's a species of value judgement, not a description.

I honestly don't have a chip on my shoulder about this, you know. All these categories were really invented to help navigate among the great mass of books and to find a way to sell them efficiently. They reflect our own attitudes and prejudices - in fact 'genre' is in many ways a synonym for 'prejudice'; it's about describing our expectations. And I truly believe that if a book is too funny, or too faithful to genre conventions, it's awfully hard to sell it as 'Literary Fiction', which reflects a whole range of other judgements, prejudices, positive qualities, et cetera.
 

Shady Lane

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But I don't enjoy genre. That isn't fun for me. I don't read to escape, I read to relate to characters. I realize some people do not.

So I don't read genre fiction. Does this mean I'm having less fun?
 

Torgo

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My point was that what you find fun, other people might not. What a fan of literary fiction might find fun, you obviously don't. That's all well and good for your personal tastes, but don't go using it to define a genre.

I am not a big literary fiction reader. It doesn't appeal to me like it appeals to Shady.

On the other hand, erotica or humor writing that, say, focuses on bodily functions as a big chunk of their humor also don't appeal to me. I don't find them fun to read. I'm pretty sure plenty of people do.

'Fun' and 'good' are not synonymous. I am, to some extent, a fan of literary fiction. What I find good, I don't always find fun, and (less often) vice versa.

But my main point, and one which apparently bears repetition, is: 'Literary' is NOT A GENRE. It describes nothing but the attitudes of readers towards it. It does not describe anything about the content of the books we're talking about.
 

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I agree that 'fun' is completely subjective, and there's certainly fun to be had in everything. But, Shady, how do you describe the LF books that you prefer to read, when someone asks you? Is 'fun' or 'entertaining' the first adjective you reach for? I bet it isn't. When someone says to me, what did you think of Octavian Nothing, I tend to wax lyrical about the sheer cleverness and craft in the prose, and about how another world is conjured into life around you in all its moral strangeness with the lightest of touches. What I don't say - even though it would be perfectly true - is "it was a gripping page-turner" or "boy howdy, what a blast that was!"

Really all I'm trying to say is: people are reluctant to call something 'literary' unless it is fundamentally serious.
 

Shady Lane

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What about 1984? Not a fan myself, but the plot is certainly gripping, and that's a literary standard. The Perks of Being a Wallflower is a YA lit classic, and it is HILARIOUS. How about Midnight's Children--certainly literary, but filled with magical powers and baby switching and prophecies--shouldn't that disqualify it?

How about As You Like It, or any of Shakespeare's comedies--too funny to be literary? I wouldn't consider it fundamentally serious. What about The Importance of Being Ernest? Does a trivial comedy for serious people meet your demands of literature?

Or The Kite Runner, that book everyone loves--there's rape, there's stolen babies, there's international intrigue, and there are tortured metaphors. Literary?
 

kaitlin008

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Your first post did not show your main point as being that literary isn't a genre. It showed that you feel literary is incapable of having a complex plot. It's sad that you feel that way.

Something can be literary and still be a page turner.

eta: this comment is in response to Torgo, not Shady ;)
 
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Shady Lane

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(For the record, I read every one of those books I mentioned in an English class. Except for Perks, because Perks is just awesome.)
 

Torgo

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What about 1984? Not a fan myself, but the plot is certainly gripping, and that's a literary standard.

I'm obviously not explaining myself very well.

You maybe seem to think that I said :"Book A is gripping, therefore it is not literary." I honestly didn't, you know. But when someone asks you to describe 1984, do you call it a 'gripping page-turner'? You don't. You say something more about it, because it is something more than a quick airport read. And the shorthand for all those somethings more is "literature".

The gripping plot or the witty dialogue or the magical powers etc are all at the service of the stuff you talk about first.

The Perks of Being a Wallflower is a YA lit classic, and it is HILARIOUS. How about Midnight's Children--certainly literary, but filled with magical powers and baby switching and prophecies--shouldn't that disqualify it?

I can't comment, not having read them.

How about As You Like It, or any of Shakespeare's comedies--too funny to be literary? I wouldn't consider it fundamentally serious. What about The Importance of Being Ernest? Does a trivial comedy for serious people meet your demands of literature?

Shakespeare's comedies weren't regarded - even by him - as the highest and most valuable work that he did. They were crowd-pleasers as much as anything. And I did give myself the antiquity cop-out, you know: enough years go by and everything is literature (even Titus Andronicus.) As for Earnest, I really don't know. Are Feydeau's farces literature? Will the astonishingly well-constructed Seinfeld be regarded as part of the literary canon in the long run?

Or The Kite Runner, that book everyone loves--there's rape, there's stolen babies, there's international intrigue, and there are tortured metaphors. Literary?

Haven't read it, can't comment. I'm admittedly rather a snob when it comes to what everyone is suddenly reading on the train.
 

Torgo

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Your first post did not show your main point as being that literary isn't a genre. It showed that you feel literary is incapable of having a complex plot.

Nope, I didn't. I said (rather snarkily, I admit) that if a book has too many of the virtues of good genre fiction people will refuse to describe it as literary fiction, which is by no means the same thing.
 

eyeblink

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What I'm trying to get at, in a somewhat flippant way, is that Literary - as a label - is not the same sort of thing as SF, suspense fiction, or any other genre which implies certain things about setting, plot or structure. Literary is not a genre, it is a judgement.

Horror is arguably not a genre then. In terms of setting, plot or structure a horror story could be SF, fantasy, crime or straight mainstream. Horror is defined by its effect on the reader - he/she expects to be scared, disturbed or (in cruder examples) repulsed. I've argued before that horror is a tone, not a genre.

A weepie is another genre that is defined by its effect - to make the reader cry.

It's a cliche, and simply untrue (bordering on inverted snobbery), that "literary" fiction is defined by "middle-aged people having existential or relationship breakdowns". Look through the list of Pulitzer or Booker winners and yes, you will find examples of those, but you will also find historical and contemporary stories, suspense thrillers, love stories, and yes, comic novels.
 

Shady Lane

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So are books divided into boring literature and meaningless airport reads, then?

You've gone from insulting one to insulting the other.
 
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