Would this sell?

The Backward OX · Jul 13, 2009

To create tension for the reader, fiction generally incorporates difficulties for the main characters to overcome.

But how would it be if a novel were written in such a way that these difficulties were foreseen by the characters and steps were taken to prevent them occurring?

As an example, let’s assume this couple want to shift some precious gems by car from one location to another.

One way such a novel might be written is to have some robbers setting upon this pair during the journey with the intention of relieving them of their goods.

Let's say the robbers succeed.

So the story gets taken up with our heroes working for a chapter or three to get the stuff back.

But how would it be if the couple are smart, foresee a possible attack by robbers, and take steps to guard themselves against such an eventuality? They have guns themselves, or minders, or something. It’s all taken care of in a few paragraphs.

Would a story written like that have any sort of appeal? Do readers like clever MCs or should the MCs always be fighting against obstacles?

roseangel · Jul 13, 2009

In my opinion? They should be clever AND fighting against obstacles.
Can't the robbers be clever too?

Prozyan · Jul 13, 2009

If the MCs fight against no obstacles, there is no conflict and therefore no story.

All you are doing in the above example is exchanging one set of obstacles for another, not removing them.

Canotila · Jul 13, 2009

There is no reason main characters have to be stupid. I prefer reading about people who are smart and do common sense things to protect themselves and achieve their goals. That doesn't mean they don't struggle along the way.

Your idea has so many possibilities. Remember too, that difficulties (i.e. conflict) does not always come from outside sources. It can come from within as well.

Maybe your MCs are married, but are having major relationship problems. Maybe one of them is planning to kill the other once the jewels are recovered. Maybe their planning ahead gets them into trouble. What if one of the robbers was the son of a powerful mobster, and he was killed during the robbery so now they have hit men after them? Why are the jewels so important? Are they heirlooms? Are they magical? Does someone they care about have a terminal illness and they need the gems to pay for treatment, or that person will die?

You could go on and on thinking of extra reasons and different scenarios around the robbery that would create plenty of conflict for intelligent MCs and make an interesting story.

Dale Emery · Jul 13, 2009

If the good guys can easily overcome or prevent threats to their goals, there's little tension in the story. That's almost certainly a problem.

Foreseeing the robbers might make a good setup, demonstrating to readers how clever the good guys are. Then you probably gotta hit them with a problem or a bad guy that is more than a match for their cleverness, so that they'll have to reach deeper into their bag of tricks, and deeper into their own character.

Dale

ORION · Jul 14, 2009

Read the book "A simple plan"

to me the book is better than the movie...but it's a perfect example of clever AND obstacles IMHO

djf881 · Jul 14, 2009

As an example, let’s assume this couple want to shift some precious gems by car from one location to another.

One way such a novel might be written is to have some robbers setting upon this pair during the journey with the intention of relieving them of their goods.

Let's say the robbers succeed.

So the story gets taken up with our heroes working for a chapter or three to get the stuff back.

That is not plot. That is a digression from a plot. The plot is the reason they are going to point B, and what is going to happen when they get there. The obstacles that the protagonist faces need to flow from the central problem or conflict of the novel. If they are unrelated, they interrupt rather than contributing to the plot.

There are a number of classic stories that focus around disconnected or episodic encounters, but they were generally combined from shorter stories, like "The Odyssey" or allegorical in nature like "The Divine Comedy" or "Alice's Adventures In Wonderland."

However, modern thrillers and crime stories need to be tightly plotted, and the events or the obstacles have to be connected. Your story should be a steady escalation toward the climax.

The obstacles that you throw in the path of your protagonist should not arise from outside the plot to be confronted and summarily disposed of. They should, rather, arise from the narrative and complicate the existing problem the protagonists face.

The Backward OX · Jul 14, 2009

djf881 said:
That is not plot. That is a digression from a plot. The plot is the reason they are going to point B, and what is going to happen when they get there. The obstacles that the protagonist faces need to flow from the central problem or conflict of the novel. If they are unrelated, they interrupt rather than contributing to the plot.

There are a number of classic stories that focus around disconnected or episodic encounters, but they were generally combined from shorter stories, like "The Odyssey" or allegorical in nature like "The Divine Comedy" or "Alice's Adventures In Wonderland."

However, modern thrillers and crime stories need to be tightly plotted, and the events or the obstacles have to be connected. Your story should be a steady escalation toward the climax.

The obstacles that you throw in the path of your protagonist should not arise from outside the plot to be confronted and summarily disposed of. They should, rather, arise from the narrative and complicate the existing problem the protagonists face.

With respect, you sound like one of those types who insist everything must follow a formula. Who says a story can’t be interrupted?

lucidzfl · Jul 14, 2009

The Backward OX said:
With respect, you sound like one of those types who insist everything must follow a formula. Who says a story can’t be interrupted?

Don't get defensive.

Whats the rest of the plot.

Act 1: People want to shift jewels.
Act 2: Robbers try and fail to rob them (In a few paragraphs, per you)
Act 3: ???

Its your story, write what you want, but what happens after the failed robbery? Is this 75 K words leading up to the robbery only to be foiled "in a few paragraphs" ?

James D. Macdonald · Jul 14, 2009

Would this sell?

Is it well-written?

maestrowork · Jul 14, 2009

MC can foresee problems and take care of them in mere paragraphs.

What's the rest of the plot?

Where are the stakes?

Why should I care then?

If you can answer these questions, then maybe you have something worth looking into.

Libbie · Jul 14, 2009

Why would a reader care about characters who are so perfect (in this case, so clever) that nothing bad ever happens to them?

Personally, I wouldn't like to read a story like that. Stories are about conflict and resolution. It's fine to have your characters avoid a trap, but if they never struggle with anything and just run around your world being brilliant and untouchable, they're just Mary Sues and not anybody the reader can care about.

maestrowork · Jul 14, 2009

Libbie said:
Why would a reader care about characters who are so perfect (in this case, so clever) that nothing bad ever happens to them?

It may be fun to read about their adventures, though, but only up to certain point. I mean, even Superman has his conflicts and problems: he's in love with Lois Lane, but he has to don his disguise, and Lois only sees Superman, not Clark Kent. And Superman certainly doesn't win every fight, even if he's the perfect super hero.

JRTurner · Jul 14, 2009

It's not about formula, it's about interest.

What do you find interesting? Look at your favorite books. What do they all have in common? If you boil them down to their most basic elements, there are themes within those pages you are attracted to and they all have the same ones.

This is what you should write because if you're not interested and you're not having a good time, the reader won't either.

Thinking of transferring jewels, reminds me of The Italian Job--that plot rocks (the movie version with Theron and Wahlberg) Why? Because it's about honor among thieves, justice for an unjust killing, the struggle between right and wrong, and how each side is trying to outsmart the other.

You asked about taking a few paragraphs or a few thousand words to write the scene--and my answer is that it depends on what you're writing. A short story, flash fiction, or a novel--your focus will depend on the idea, how you want to execute that idea and the legs the idea has.

One scene won't be a whole book--but it could be a short story. Maybe you have an idea for a short story, but wanted one for a whole book? There's also the option of an anthology later down the road.

Just a few thoughts to help you brainstorm

Warmly,
Jenny

MsGneiss · Jul 14, 2009

It doesn't have to follow a formula, and your characters can be clever. But, if there's no conflict, if there are no obstacles to overcome, I don't see the plot working for a novel. There, it becomes more of a stream-of-consciousness type of deal, ala Montaigne's essays. And, I don't think this sentiment is exclusive just to genre fiction. Even literary works operate on the same principle - basically, bad stuff needs to happen to somebody at some point.

djf881 · Jul 14, 2009

It's a matter of what the hook is. If the characters did a heist, but somebody stole the loot and now the characters have to get it back, that's a perfectly sound arc, in and of itself.

But the heist has got to be interesting, the double-cross has got to be interesting, and the reversal has got to be original and cathartic. Getting jacked in the road really isn't that interesting.

It sounds like the robbers aren't even a piece of the story, but are just there to pad length. Getting from point A to point B in fiction is really as simple as establishing that they are going someplace, putting in a chapter or scene break, and picking up when they arrive.

This convention makes sense because the story is where the plot is happening. Where the plot is not happening is not the story. This is not a formula. This is God and you must worship it, or it will smite you with a plague of rejection letters.

If the reader is absorbed in your plot, then the digression is unnecessary, unwanted and annoying. If your plot is so dull that you need to juice it with some kind of action set piece that comes from outside the story, your book is bad and will not sell.

MsGneiss · Jul 14, 2009

djf881 said:
This is not a formula. This is God and you must worship it, or it will smite you with a plague of rejection letters.

Harsh, but true.

The Lonely One · Jul 14, 2009

Have you seen Adaptation?

Here's a line I always remembered (absolutely great fucking move, btw)

[at a seminar, Charlie Kaufman has asked McKee for advice on his new screenplay in which 'nothing much happens']
Robert McKee: Nothing happens in the world? Are you out of your fucking mind? People are murdered every day. There's genocide, war, corruption. Every fucking day, somewhere in the world, somebody sacrifices his life to save someone else. Every fucking day, someone, somewhere takes a conscious decision to destroy someone else. People find love, people lose it. For Christ's sake, a child watches her mother beaten to death on the steps of a church. Someone goes hungry. Somebody else betrays his best friend for a woman. If you can't find that stuff in life, then you, my friend, don't know crap about life! And why the FUCK are you wasting my two precious hours with your movie? I don't have any use for it! I don't have any bloody use for it!
Charlie Kaufman: Okay, thanks.

motormind · Jul 14, 2009

James D. Macdonald said:
Is it well-written?

Define "well-written".

Judg · Jul 14, 2009

I had my characters doing exactly that: foreseeing obstacles and making intelligent decisions. And it was getting really boring. The solution was not to make them stupid, but to have a totally unforeseen event blindside them. So I blindsided them. And they had to scramble like crazy. No more boring.

Robbers you can foresee and should foresee and plan for. How can you foresee the bozo who runs a red light at 80 mph? Or the windstorm that drops a huge branch on the car? Or the sudden onset of food poisoning? In real life, things do go wrong, despite the best of planning. And that's usually where the story potential lies, not in the planning itself. Good planning is the purview of user manuals and financial planning texts. Very useful but not exactly riveting reads.

MsGneiss · Jul 14, 2009

I think it might work from the perspective of the robbers, whose plans are spoiled by those two pesky smarty-pants who foresee their every move.

Prozyan · Jul 14, 2009

motormind said:
Define "well-written".

"not suck".

Well-written is somewhat subjective, but a general definition is would people read it and be entertained, but even that falls short since some would argue many books entertain and aren't well-written.

I think the basic point UJ was trying to get across is that anything can be done if it is done well.

motormind · Jul 14, 2009

Prozyan said:
"not suck".

Well-written is somewhat subjective, but a general definition is would people read it and be entertained, but even that falls short since some would argue many books entertain and aren't well-written.

I think the basic point UJ was trying to get across is that anything can be done if it is done well.

So basically, something is well-written if it is written well. Makes sense.

Prozyan · Jul 14, 2009

motormind said:
Makes sense.

Of course it does.

The Lonely One · Jul 14, 2009

I don't think there's anyone alive smart enough to avoid every conflict in their life.

Someone lives in a room their entire life, never leaves, and gets cancer.

Someone wins an award for their problem solving skills. The award ceremony is bombed.

Sooner or later, everyone steps in it. It's called being human. How people persevere through things like that...

That's what I believe people want to read.

Would this sell?

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