Goal, Conflict, Outcome of a scene

Maybe.

In general, goal, conflict, and outcome are good things that you want in a scene. But sometimes -- depending on size, style and genre -- there's a place for less goal-oriented scenes. (Also, you can have a passage with goal, conflict, and outcome and still have it be unnecessary -- superfluous, or a distraction, or at odds with the rest of the plot or theme.)

I wouldn't worry about it until the first draft is finished, myself. Once you have the whole thing in front of you, it should be easier to figure out what's necessary and what's not.

However, if you find there's a lot of times where you can't answer those three questions, you might need to work on plot and narrative drive.

sassandgroove said:

. My question is, if I can't answer those questions, does it mean I don't need that scene?

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Beats me. I don't even ask myself such questions, let alone try to answer them.

I write screenplays as well as novels, and with screenplays ensuring a scene advances the story is pretty darn critical....whereas with a book, I think the rules of structure are far more relaxed. I think the selection criteria for a book should be...'is the scene/chapter a good read?' If it is, keep it, if not lose it.

My current novel has plenty of plot diversions and chapters that dont advance the plot at all, but flesh out the characters or the world instead.

Jamesaritchie said:

Beats me. I don't even ask myself such questions, let alone try to answer them.

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I'm with him. I just write the story.

I think you should always keep goals, conflicts and outcome in mind when you write you scenes, especially the ones that move the plot along. However, like other have said, you have to have all three to make a scene. But if your scene does not have any goals, conflicts or outcomes (not even one), then you should ask yourself what the purpose of this scene is.

Remember, goals and conflicts make good drama. But conflict in every scene gets old quick. You need to know how to pace your readers...

maestrowork said:

Remember, goals and conflicts make good drama. But conflict in every scene gets old quick. You need to know how to pace your readers...

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The best writer I know of, a four time Hugo winner I believe, has a conflict in every third paragraph. It NEVER gets old.

sassandgroove said:

My question is, if I can't answer those questions, does it mean I don't need that scene?

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Possibly. I think it mostly means that you need to put some more thinking into that scene and look underneath the surface. While its true that you can go a much longer way on BS in prose if you have a good narrative, it is equally true that the it is never a good idea. The best style is one that squeezes the most purpose and content into each and every sentence.

If a scene is just for hoots, then "hoots" is the goal. Same goes for characterization or world building or whatever.

Because my story is a myster/thriller I try to advance along as many lines as possible in every scene - plot, backstory, characterization, theme, world building, info, and foreshadowing. There's always a little you can do for all these things in every scene, even if the emphasis is on only one or two of these elements.

Even scenes with conflict aren't always worth keeping. Consider a scene in which a character is looking for something. His search leads him to a locked door. He stands in front of it, banging on it. No one opens it, so he leaves. *yawn*

If Conflict = Want + Obstacle, this scene has conflict. But it's not meaningful conflict. It has a resolution, but who cares? IMO, what's important more than goal/conflict/resolution is that the scene advances the plot or reveals character. And those things can be done without conflict.

IMO, what's important more than goal/conflict/resolution is that the scene advances the plot or reveals character. And those things can be done without conflict.

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Azbiker girl has a good point.

A standard technique for thrillers is to have short scenes with no immediate goal or conflict, but relating to the bigger conflict. Pretty much like chess moves. I call them Positional Scenes.

For example:

East Coast USA: Man fishing notices disturbance in the water.
Jamaica: In-shore cruiseship sinks with all hands and passengers
Japan: A man is gunned down on the doorstep of his daughter's school.

Big caveat: I think this only works if you have a really pressing Big Conflict which is clearly established very early on, and if you keep the scenes short.

A good example of this in action is Clancy's Red Storm Rising(analysed here http://www.livejournal.com/users/zornhau/28245.html)

David Weber also uses it in the Honor Harrington books, though the later books are probably How-Not-To-Do-This examples. John Ringo is also a master of this.

A lot of people Positional Scenes instinctively since most TV shows are structured this way. The snag is that for longer novels, you lose out on the momentum gained by low level rolling conflict - you end up with one big arc, but no ripples.

Scenes

I believe there are many reasons to write a scene, and conflict isn't alway one of them. Any structure that is too repetative gets old fast for me. I can't adide a novel where scene after scene after scene is written the same way for the same purpose.

For me, all that matters is whether or not what I'm writing at the moment is a logical progression from what I wrote a minute ago, a logical consequence of what just happened. If it is, it stays, if it isn't it goes.

For me, it's about story, and about character. Story is easy enough, character is tougher. Characters have to be real, they have to live and breathe, and if the writer is too concenred with scene, with conflict and goal, character can suffer. What I want to know is If this character were a real person, what would he do, say, think, feel, see, hear right at this moment?

Real people do not live only in the conflict around them, but in the world the conflict takes place in. Real people have more than one problem, more than one line of thought. Real people see things, hear things, notice things, that too often get negelcted when a writer concentrates too much on scene goals and conflicts.

Jaoman said:

The best writer I know of, a four time Hugo winner I believe, has a conflict in every third paragraph. It NEVER gets old.

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Who would that be? If he's a four time Hugo winner, I probably read him, but I haven't noticed anyone doing this on a conscious level.

Jamesaritchie said:

I believe there are many reasons to write a scene, and conflict isn't alway one of them. Any structure that is too repetative gets old fast for me. I can't adide a novel where scene after scene after scene is written the same way for the same purpose.

For me, all that matters is whether or not what I'm writing at the moment is a logical progression from what I wrote a minute ago, a logical consequence of what just happened. If it is, it stays, if it isn't it goes.

For me, it's about story, and about character. Story is easy enough, character is tougher. Characters have to be real, they have to live and breathe, and if the writer is too concenred with scene, with conflict and goal, character can suffer. What I want to know is If this character were a real person, what would he do, say, think, feel, see, hear right at this moment?

Real people do not live only in the conflict around them, but in the world the conflict takes place in. Real people have more than one problem, more than one line of thought. Real people see things, hear things, notice things, that too often get negelcted when a writer concentrates too much on scene goals and conflicts.

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I hope you are right. I tried using Ywriter, and it made me feel guilty, like I didn't know what I was doing. Then I worried that my story was boring, had too much in it that was just interesting in the name of character development and story line or world building.

A lot of on-line writers stress the need for conflict in every scene, and it does make for exciting reading. So I keep wondering if my beginner-status is keeping me from doing the job right. Of course I don't want to lose the attention of my readers. I want them to care about what happens next, but I want them to care about what happens to my characters, whether they are in some sort of conflict or merely challenged by their story problem.

I find it hard to get perspective on this. Strangely, the beta readers of my first novel were not at all in agreement on what they found interesting. Of the five readers, each homed in on something different, and often it was the world building and character relationships rather than the actions that involve conflict which they found very invloving. Needless to say, with such disparate reactions, I could not see any way to revise it, so I shall submit it as is. (If it is not accepted somewhere, I'll never know exactly why not, because there are several oddities in it that might cause it to be rejected.)

YWriter is not entirely useless, because it does serve to remind me to keep scenes lively, but I did remove it from my desk top. I think scenes can be involving in more ways than just with conflict. I don't know what your track record is , James, but mine is nonexistant. I do hope you are right.

One of the best features of ywriter for me has been the time tracker. I realized I was skipping entire weeks and not following a realistic timeline. Or assuming it was the wrong time of day.

You can skip the parts you don't like, and the software will still work well. Very few of the fields are mandatory.

Diviner said:

I don't know what your track record is , James, but mine is nonexistant. I do hope you are right.

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My track record could be better, but I'll take it. I've had nine novels published, three more upcoming, and close to 100 short stories published. Not a record by any means, but I must be doing something right.

Part of the problem might be with the word "conflict." It's a word often taken to mean something major, something action oriented, must be happening. This just isn't right.

Take the "conflict every three paragraphs" thing. Does this mean that two out of every three paragraphs have no conflict? Does this mean you can't have three paragraphs in a row with conflict, and then three without?

And how is "conflict" defined in these paragraphs?

Not a way I'd want to write.

Remember, conflict also includes "internal" ones. When you have someone who wants something, but can't get it, or who's struggling against something, you have conflicts. It doesn't have to be external.

Jamesaritchie said:

Beats me. I don't even ask myself such questions, let alone try to answer them.

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Same here---

Jamesaritchie said:

For me, all that matters is whether or not what I'm writing at the moment is a logical progression from what I wrote a minute ago, a logical consequence of what just happened. If it is, it stays, if it isn't it goes.

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This too---

Jamesaritchie said:

Who would that be? If he's a four time Hugo winner, I probably read him, but I haven't noticed anyone doing this on a conscious level.

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It's a she. Lois McMaster Bujold.