Too short...

Mikey B · May 20, 2009

I went through several pages of threads, but couldn't find anything on this topic specifically.

I know there's a thread on writing too much, but what about writing too little? Every script I write barely clocks in at 80 pages (if I'm lucky). I know there's a ton of stuff happening, but my dialogue scenes are way shorter then most films I watch, and even my web series (that I'm editing now) is coming in at 4 minutes each (when each script is 7 pages). So, even then, that 80 pages doesn't inspire much confidence. Any advice on how I can break this habit?

Thanks in advance.

icerose · May 20, 2009

You may be a naturally short writer. I am. Look at your plots and subplots. (btw I despise adding length because I will not allow myself to pad or add fluff, so it's a lot of work). Are you taking too easy a route with your characters? What obstacles can you throw in front of them. What about character development? Are they fully formed and fleshed out, you may need to add scenes that develop that character, that bring them out more.

That being said, good luck, it sucks.

Mikey B · May 20, 2009

icerose said:
You may be a naturally short writer. I am. Look at your plots and subplots. (btw I despise adding length because I will not allow myself to pad or add fluff, so it's a lot of work). Are you taking too easy a route with your characters? What obstacles can you throw in front of them. What about character development? Are they fully formed and fleshed out, you may need to add scenes that develop that character, that bring them out more.

That being said, good luck, it sucks.

I agree on the padding. I refuse to add scenes of random exposition and nonsensical filler to make the script longer. I'll look into my characters a bit more...

Thanks.

jonpiper · May 20, 2009

Your pacing could be too quick. Perhaps you need to expand your scenes. Draw out the suspense or create more conflict within certain scenes. Write more detailed action in certain fight, dance, and chase scenes. Things like that.

Mikey B · May 20, 2009

jonpiper said:
Your pacing could be too quick. Perhaps you need to expand your scenes. Draw out the suspense or create more conflict within certain scenes. Write more detailed action in certain fight, dance, and chase scenes. Things like that.

How can I add length to a scene? I get that the scene is just what happens and what's said (I've already read through all the things about a beginning and an end and something in the value should change), but is there a specific way to make everything slow down and drag out tension? I used to write everything in single sentences before breaks, but I was told to just clump them together. is this wrong?

RainbowDragon · May 21, 2009

Yeah I used to clump them together but then what happens is readers skip the action lines anyway and miss important details.

White space is your friend.

It makes for a faster read.

Don't worry about the time it will translate to film -- that's the producer's headache.

Plenty of blockbusters are only 75-80 minutes of screen time.

jonpiper · May 21, 2009

Mikey B said:
How can I add length to a scene? I get that the scene is just what happens and what's said (I've already read through all the things about a beginning and an end and something in the value should change), but is there a specific way to make everything slow down and drag out tension? I used to write everything in single sentences before breaks, but I was told to just clump them together. is this wrong?

The pros can explain this better than I.

A scene is like a mini-story, and like a story has a middle as well as a beginning and end. You can create tension slowly through the middle of the scene. The same with suspense. Terror. Sexuality.

Don't rush it. We are told to enter the scene late and leave early. True, but while in the scene a lot can and should happen. You can be creative. For example, do your characters just dance? Or do they dance in a way that reveals their character or advances the story.

Mikey B · May 22, 2009

RainbowDragon said:
Yeah I used to clump them together but then what happens is readers skip the action lines anyway and miss important details.

White space is your friend.

It makes for a faster read.

Don't worry about the time it will translate to film -- that's the producer's headache. Plenty of blockbusters are only 75-80 minutes of screen time.

Thanks for the heads up. But, I'm also Producer and Director.

But, I totally understand what you're saying. I tend to want to skip ahead in scripts when there's huge chunks of black on the page.

jonpiper said:
The pros can explain this better than I.

A scene is like a mini-story, and like a story has a middle as well as a beginning and end. You can create tension slowly through the middle of the scene. The same with suspense. Terror. Sexuality.

Don't rush it. We are told to enter the scene late and leave early. True, but while in the scene a lot can and should happen. You can be creative. For example, do your characters just dance? Or do they dance in a way that reveals their character or advances the story.

Oh, I never thought of it like that, jon. I'll try thinking of each scene as a mini-story. That might help me bring it to life a little better. I was trying to stick with the "come in late, leave early" mantra, but that was just causing me to make every scene about a page, and therefore not allowing them to grow and take on a life of their own.

killbox · May 22, 2009

Some people are naturally short writers. Most of my scripts end up in the 90-100 page region without me trying. It may feel like an issue, but compared to the thousands of new writers out there chalking out 147 page scripts on a regular basis, you may find people like getting handed your 90 pager. I was talking to a new writer the other day who was excited he had cut down his script to 168 pages and said there was no way he could take any more off. He'll figure it out eventually. I just feel sorry for whatever reader at the Nicholl ended up with that novel.

With that said, you do want to keep it in the 90-110 region simply because this does help give a good impression to your reader. Just like a reader is turned off by a thick script, they are equally turned off by a thin one so you really do need to expand it to hit a minimum of 90 pages. Yeah some Hollywood scripts have been written less than that, but as I'm assuming your not a sold Hollywood writer, technically- that statistic doesn't apply to you... YET.

Some will argue (correctly) that it also doesn't matter how long or short your script is IF the concept and execution are good. This is true, but for the sake of good first impression with your reader: Hit 90.

Mikey B · May 22, 2009

killbox said:
Some people are naturally short writers. Most of my scripts end up in the 90-100 page region without me trying. It may feel like an issue, but compared to the thousands of new writers out there chalking out 147 page scripts on a regular basis, you may find people like getting handed your 90 pager. I was talking to a new writer the other day who was excited he had cut down his script to 168 pages and said there was no way he could take any more off. He'll figure it out eventually. I just feel sorry for whatever reader at the Nicholl ended up with that novel.

With that said, you do want to keep it in the 90-110 region simply because this does help give a good impression to your reader. Just like a reader is turned off by a thick script, they are equally turned off by a thin one so you really do need to expand it to hit a minimum of 90 pages. Yeah some Hollywood scripts have been written less than that, but as I'm assuming your not a sold Hollywood writer, technically- that statistic doesn't apply to you... YET.

Some will argue (correctly) that it also doesn't matter how long or short your script is IF the concept and execution are good. This is true, but for the sake of good first impression with your reader: Hit 90.

Thanks for the heads up. I definitely want to hit at least 90 pages. I am not a sold Hollywood writer. That is exactly my problem. I tell me story, tightly, in 60-70 pages, but I don't want to fill it with padding.

Next play, subplots. I've heard those are great if they add to the main story...

lblack · May 23, 2009

I use Final Draft, and you can adjust the spacing to make your script longer, or shorter, without changing anything in the content. It's a really nice feature. My latest script, is 131 pages. I have it out to friends and family for proofing, and scribbling (lol). I tend to be shorter winded with the scene set-ups than I should be, but I'm working on it. I have always heard that 120 is the perfect number of pages for a script, who is right?

icerose · May 23, 2009

lblack said:
I use Final Draft, and you can adjust the spacing to make your script longer, or shorter, without changing anything in the content. It's a really nice feature. My latest script, is 131 pages. I have it out to friends and family for proofing, and scribbling (lol). I tend to be shorter winded with the scene set-ups than I should be, but I'm working on it. I have always heard that 120 is the perfect number of pages for a script, who is right?

The problem with fudging the spacing is, one, you can get caught. Two you could have some story problems that are causing it to be too long or too short and by simply changing the spacing you aren't forcing yourself to either trim the excess fat or develop and underdeveloped script/character/plot/storyline.

midnight candle · May 23, 2009

RainbowDragon said:
White space is your friend.

It makes for a faster read.

that's all there is to it

Click to expand...

killbox · May 23, 2009

lblack said:
I use Final Draft, and you can adjust the spacing to make your script longer, or shorter, without changing anything in the content. It's a really nice feature. My latest script, is 131 pages. I have it out to friends and family for proofing, and scribbling (lol). I tend to be shorter winded with the scene set-ups than I should be, but I'm working on it. I have always heard that 120 is the perfect number of pages for a script, who is right?

Firstly, thats a dangerous game. Industry readers see professional scripts all the time, they know when your fudging the rules and they will get turned off by it. If you use FD, stick to Courier Final Draft and don't mess with anything. It's exactly how it should be.

Secondly, page count depends on the genre and this is one of those topics with no one answer. Some genres like thriller or horror, its acceptable to have a 90 page script, but likely no less than that. 120 pages is considered by most to be the MOST a new writer should ever do. Over 120 is bad, under is good. 110 is considered about perfect. But like all unwritten rules, it can sometimes to be broken and work (i.e. selling a 140 page script) but why run the risk as a new writer of giving your reader a bad first impression with a overly thick script?

lblack · May 24, 2009

I can see that I need to return the script to it's original length, of 112 pages. I opened up the spacing to 1.5 between scenes to lengthen it, becuse all I have read, is the magic number of 120. More is better than less, that sort of thing. This script is a romance/drama. Yeah, I know, a guy writing romance, or drama, sounds weird, but I write anything that pops into my head. What can I say, my hands are slaves to my imagination. ;P

Mikey B · Jun 3, 2009

Thanks for the replies guys (and gals, maybe). I'm going to look this over again. Will update when I see how it plays out on this write-thru.

zeprosnepsid · Jun 3, 2009

I am also a short writer. I'm trying to do something with a current script which is at 70 pages. This happens for a number of reasons. One is I don't write flowery prose. If you read a lot of pro scripts you'll find them full of flowery prose. I just quickly flipped a page or two into Notting Hill:

"It is a small shop, slightly chaotic, bookshelves everywhere,
with little secret bits round corners with even more books.
Martin, William's sole employee, is waiting enthusiastically.
He is very keen, an uncrushable optimist. Perhaps without
cause. A few seconds later, William stands gloomily behind the
desk."

I love you Richard Curtis, but good god look at all those words. I would never use that many words.

I also have a tendency to skip first acts and get right into the story.
My inciting incidents generally happen on page 1 which does not help
the length.

In my previously mentioned 70 page comedy script, I'm going to have add another comedic sequence. There's just no other solution.

But I've noticed that while I have a lot of 70 page first drafts, they usually grow in re-writes.

I've also noticed, that since a lot of my short length comes from terse descriptions, that when I film my own scripts, the running time is always longer than the page count.

But still, I can't make my descriptions twice as long when I feel I've used all the words I need to describe something. I don't particularly feel like going though my descriptive paragraphs and adding color when I don't think they need it. So I really don't suggest padding.

But try to find a way to get up to the 90 pages expected of you if you can (I usually give up when I hit 88 or 89). White space is definitely your friend, explore those subplots if you haven't, and don't think of ways to pad your film, but think of ways to make it more complex and add more development. Being short is an opportunity to do something interesting, versus being long which can be a heart wrenching experience -- or so I'm told -- cause I really have no idea.

Stijn Hommes · Jun 4, 2009

RainbowDragon said:
Yeah I used to clump them together but then what happens is readers skip the action lines anyway and miss important details.

White space is your friend.

It makes for a faster read.

Don't worry about the time it will translate to film -- that's the producer's headache. Plenty of blockbusters are only 75-80 minutes of screen time.

Don't clump it all together, Don't put whitespace after every line. Group action lines in paragraphs that make sense instead.

WMcQuaig · Jun 4, 2009

This might just be a style choice but when I run into the problem of not hitting a particular page length. I go back and look at the script as a whole and see what needs expanding and what needs more defining, etc. etc. I also agree with no padding but I think padding can work if you use it properly.

Let me explain. I have a tendency to figure out the entire story of the characters and the world that is being created within this, let's say, micro universe before I even start writing. There are other things that might have happened in these characters lives, either before or after said circumstances (the story), that may help to define whats going on or explain something else about the characters, villain, etc. that helps provide the viewer/reader with more information. That is what I pull into the story thus creating subplots and further expanding the characters and the script while still remaining true to the original story and not "Padding" with non-sense.

The main problem with this method is that when you add something that might help expand the script/story you have to be sure that it makes contextual sense. So, it doesn't seem like the scene comes out of nowhere and goes nowhere.

Simply put, it has to serve a purpose. either immediately or over the course of the entire story. Alright this is getting long. Hope this helps, if it actually makes sense to you.

ComicBent · Jun 4, 2009

Not enough story

If your script is 80 pages, it is not long enough.

The usual problem is that there is just not enough story.

What I usually see with this kind of script is something that I call "linear." The story starts and goes from point A to B to C, etc., and finally is over. There is not enough uncertainty. In good scripts the direction of the action changes along the way, and the original goal may not turn out to be the legitimate goal, or the goal is quite different from what the protagonist thought it would be.

In other word, your plot needs complexity. You will need more than 80 pages.

Also, I have almost never seen a script by a nonprofessional that did not have a lot of unintentional (or intentional) padding. You can almost always eliminate some of the action lines that do nothing except tell us things about the character (like what he is thinking); and the same goes for most of the parentheticals, which are completely extraneous.

Anyway, work on more complexity.

Too short...

Mikey B

icerose

Lost in School Work

Mikey B

jonpiper

Mikey B

RainbowDragon

Perpetuous Revisasaurus

jonpiper

Mikey B

killbox

More often than not...

Mikey B

lblack

Newbie here, hi all!!

icerose

Lost in School Work

midnight candle

don't be gentle

killbox

More often than not...

lblack

Newbie here, hi all!!

Mikey B

zeprosnepsid

Stijn Hommes

Know what you write...

WMcQuaig

insert something original or whitty

ComicBent