Different Groups representing world views

I've always found morally grey characters to be slightly more interesting than purely stereotypically evil or good characters. I'm less likely to classify entire groups as fitting perfectly into a narrow mindset though. Every culture has its sub counter-cultures.

There is a lot of people who call themselves Christian, but that label means something different to a lot of them. It's kind of like that.

When I build a fictional kingdom, the ideology of that kingdom primarily applies to the people who rule it, and may not be entirely shared by the actual citizens who live under them.

PS: Regardless of what neo-druidism is today, actual historical druids were not hippie planet worshipers. They had a pantheon of gods and practiced human sacrifice, but there is little we know of their specific beliefs because they were an oral tradition and wrote very little down. Most of what we know comes from reports by Roman writers, who may not have fully understood their culture when they wrote about them.

lukebailey said:

For example, I was once musing a little story in my mind that took place in my world where a group of girls go on a "vacation" in a carriage at the end of their childhood to celebrate, in much the same manner as our kids do today. But when I actually thought about it, I was amazed by how i had simply taken for granted that this was a normal thing to do. In a typical medieval-style world, a vacation would be the last thing on the mind of a young woman.

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That's a good observation.

I like to read historical novels as well as fantasy, but I hate it when modern day authors slip their worldviews into their character's minds. If you read novels that were actually written a hundred years ago, their thought processes were very different from what they are today. Jane Austin's characters were very discreet about their affairs (love, money, etc.) They also tended to accept their roles in life much more readily than we might.

Two of my favorite fantasy novels ("The Magicians and Mrs. Quent" and "Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell) did a great job with aligning their characters mindset with their settings.

lukebailey said:

In a typical medieval-style world, a vacation would be the last thing on the mind of a young woman.

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Or in many parts of our world, as well. I'll echo your point about modern attitudes put into the heads of characters who wouldn't have them--but it's not only that; it's often middle-class, white, North American attitudes.

An example that particularly irks me is when teenage or young adult characters become surly and rebellious. Teenage rebellion is a 20thC. construct, and the idea that a feudal warlord is going to put up with it from his son is . . . amazing. It's also very culturally-limited: in Thailand, where I live, young men are certainly aggressive and dangerous--but generally also very respectful to their parents.

Off topic, but yeah, that modern-ideas-in-old-heads bothers me as well. The best example I've read of getting inside the head of a historical character is in Deus Lo Volt!, an account of the Crusades written from the POV of a French knight. The narrator is, at times, very out of step with modern attitudes (as when describing the slaughter of the Muslims after the fall of Jerusalem), but that's what makes it such a great book.

I just finished a novel that had different people from different time periods, so I certainly ran up against the issue of having them represent their era well. Mostly what I do is try to create aliens, and match their language and philosophy to models that are unfamiliar. This involves dealing with the philosophical models directly and often trying to defeat reader expectations that grow out of those natural models.

It's fun to do.

lukebailey said:

In a typical medieval-style world, a vacation would be the last thing on the mind of a young woman.

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Actually it wasn't that long after the end of the middle ages ( from 1660? ) that the Grand Tour became popular for those of a certain class. And they might not see it as a vacation - it might be a pilgrimage to a certain place to confirm their womanhood or somesuch - perfectly acceptable in a pseudo mediaeval world I would have thought. Because if you're writing second world fantasy their customs won't be the same as ours, and nor will what they think like, or behave like. As long as it's consistent with how you've made your world, I woudln't have a problem.

In a historical, not so much

Euan H. said:

Or in many parts of our world, as well. I'll echo your point about modern attitudes put into the heads of characters who wouldn't have them--but it's not only that; it's often middle-class, white, North American attitudes.

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Here, here!

If I'm not trying to be realistic I keep ending up with pre-industrial tribespeople who somehow mysteriously have modern humanist ethics. Makes no sense developmentally, but I guess it's my idea of utopia.

lukebailey said:

I had an interesting epiphamy (is that how you spell it? lol) the other day.

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'Epiphany' (from Gk. epiphaneia "manifestation, striking appearance").

I realized that I had, without trying, created each in fitting with a certain western European worldview. The first group, called Sentinels, are more religious, philosophical warrior-types, and fit perfectly into the pre-modern or medieval world view.

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This is really common Luke, and I think that you nailed the reason in your intro: 'without trying'.

SFF readers love novelty, but novelty doesn't come from nowhere. As writers unless we spend effort on novel invention, we tend to rehash whatever is familiar to us. But we're just children of our culture and if it's instantly familiar to the ourselves, it will be instantly familiar to the reader too. Sometimes that's what desired, but sometimes it bleaches the conflicts, makes any resolution trite and predictable.

Without trying, cliches drop into setting and plot design like rotting apples from a tree. They might be familiar images, or symbols of things familiar to us, or character stereotypes, or familiar plot-twists. A good writer is on guard against regurgitating his own culture. It's impossible to surprise the reader if you do that, and if you can't surprise them, you can't interest them.

So, please consider: unless you plan to explore monotheistic fundamentalism vs modernism vs New Age libereralism as a major theme, I'd suggest not letting those distinctions sit as-is. Unless you handle them cleverly and surprisingly, I suspect that your savvier readers will see the stereotypes and conflict-cliches coming and put the story down.

So try turning things on their head. Make the Stewards more superstitious and brutal than the Sentinels; make the wizards either grossly decadent or massively puritan. Make the Sentinels humanitarian... Make all of them so different and unrecognisable that readers will find them utterly new and fascinating. Don't draw from earthly history for stereotypes; create a 'what if' that could never have happened in our world -- and make it credible.

sunandshadow said:

If I'm not trying to be realistic I keep ending up with pre-industrial tribespeople who somehow mysteriously have modern humanist ethics. Makes no sense developmentally, but I guess it's my idea of utopia.

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Some savages are more humanist than others. I had a professor who worked with one group (the Satu Dine, Athabaskans from around Bear Lake (Satu)) who sounded like a seminar on hunting that was going on all the time. Very humanist in the sense of spending all their time mulling over the fine points of their favorite passtime which was shooting large animals.
Some other groups (for example one Australian bunch that was expanding its territory in the 1970s by taking over the local religious traditions of other groups) had similarly humanist priorities in terms of archives and education. The archival work involved memorizing whole creation myths by painting them on the body of the memorizing person. The guy who worked with them got a myth painted on him every morning for a few months and he swore he still remembered the whole thing.

On the other hand there were some bunches of savages that scholars ever managed to talk to at all. Presumably they had less humanist priorities.

sunandshadow said:

If I'm not trying to be realistic I keep ending up with pre-industrial tribespeople who somehow mysteriously have modern humanist ethics. Makes no sense developmentally, but I guess it's my idea of utopia.

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This is a good point, a lot of novels I have read particularly prehistoric fiction like Jean M. Auel seem to have no difficulty imagining the utopia of primitivism mixed with modern ideals like equality for women. I do not think its realistic either.

The original point of the thread is a fascinating area. Its like socio-political commentary coming through in fantasy: the world we know and the types we are familiar with end up as the templates. Your types (Sentinel etc) are informed by what you percieve to be some of the important driving forces in society. I think thats great, both for fiction and for you, psychologically speaking, its very healthy and creative. Good luck with your writing!

I actually didn't find the feminist leanings in Jean M. Auel's books to be offputting. It actually made sense to me; in a world where survival depended on the cooperation of the tribe, I could totally see women as playing a large and important role in everything from hunting to ceremonial activities. Whether or not that's actually how it went down, it seemed plausible.

Now, Ayla's penchant for inventing everything from the atl-atl to saddles for horses? I love the books, but I'm fully expecting her to invent a microwave next.

My societies in my WIP roughly correspond with different ancient societies (with some changes, obviously, because it is fantasy).

So one society is vaguely Athenian, one is Spartan, one is Egyptian, one is Persian. And there will probably be more.

The only thing that I wondering about is how readers will respond to the fact that most of my characters are polygamists. And no, none of them wax poetic about how WRONG polygamy is and why can't men just have one wife, etc.

Prit said:

The only thing that I wondering about is how readers will respond to the fact that most of my characters are polygamists. And no, none of them wax poetic about how WRONG polygamy is and why can't men just have one wife, etc.

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Why should it be a problem? I've got one culture where, as the saying goes, 'Never trade with a man you wouldn't share your wife with'. The lady in charge will boff any guy to get what she wants.

Meaning my heroine has been around the block a few times...

It's fantasy. As long as you aren't forcing a sexual practice down our throats so much it looks like your private fantasy for those special alone times, and as long as it's consistent with your world and believably shown, you should be fine. Some people may have a problem with it,( we've all got things that make us go *squick*) but you can't aim to please everyone.


Oh, and

IdiotsRUs said:

It's fantasy. As long as you aren't forcing a sexual practice down our throats so much it looks like your private fantasy for those special alone times, and as long as it's consistent with your world and believably shown, you should be fine. Some people may have a problem with it,( we've all got things that make us go *squick*) but you can't aim to please everyone.

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Yeah, that makes sense. I guess that I just don't read that many fantasy books in which the culture that the MC lives in practices polygamy on a large scale, so it made me wonder if a lot of people are going to be really reluctant to read it. But then again, the majority of fantasy books seem to be based on the medieval world.