Disagreeing with your agent

Sage · Apr 28, 2009

I just got my revision letter from my agent. This is for my first novel (not first written, but the one he offered representation for). And I just hate some of these suggestions.

Now, let me say, that I'm not anti-revising. I don't think this novel is perfect. I actually had ideas for big changes that I brought up to him based on his initial, "this part is weak," when we spoke. Major change-the-entire-beginning-and-cut-out-a-character changes. The character I wanted to cut is the catalyst for the action in the novel, which is why cutting her would be difficult, but I figured I could work around that. Mostly I felt that she muddies up the real love triangle for my MC, and doesn't do what I meant for her to do in the beginning because she fails as a character for that, and while I'm totally willing to do girl-girl romance, it just didn't work out for this character.

But he wants me to cut out a different character. Not a useless character or a minor character. This is a character my MC spends half the book with. He's also one of the two main love interests and the one she ends up with. My agent wants me to cut him and have the MC end up with the more minor character (the one I was suggesting I cut). The MC's attraction to her is very superficial. Out of all my betas (and I've had a lot), not a single one wanted the MC to end up with her, and most wanted the MC to end up with the one my agent wants cut.

The character he wants me to cut is much better developed, possibly the best developed character in the novel. The chemistry between the two of them is great, and is in fact why he ends up getting the girl (she was supposed to end up with the other guy in the love triangle). Their relationship has some great inherent metaphors in it.

While I'm not anti-revising, I am kinda against rewriting the entire novel from scratch. And I'm pretty sure that cutting his character, developing the relationship with the more minor character, and changing her personality so it could be something real, PLUS the other revisions he suggested would require starting at square one.

So when your agent makes suggestions that you just think are wrong (or leave you wondering what he liked about the book in the first place), do you go back to him and try to negotiate? I don't want to come across as a difficult writer (in fact another agent before I accepted this one's offer commented on how open I was to her revisions). He could have asked me to cut any other character in the book except the MC and the two guys in the main triangle and I would've made it work. Other suggestions he made are going to be difficult, but I'm ready and willing to do them. I just can't imagine how this one serves the book.

YAwriter72 · Apr 28, 2009

I ran into this. My agent wanted to cut a huge plot point that would have eliminated half the book. I was sick. Then after talking to a couple of people, realized I didn't have to concede everything. He had some REALLY good points that I agreed with, so I sent back an email telling him I liked this, this and this, but really felt I wanted to keep the plot point intact. (He also wanted my MC to end up with one guy while I had her end up with who I wanted her with-as did all my CP's!) I argued my point, said I would make the attraction less between her and other guy and we reached a compromise.

But I was really upset at first until I got it into my head, I didn't HAVE to accept any of the suggestions. Its a compromise, you need to rationally explain why you need them there. Good luck! I will admit freely that the book was SO MUCH better after all the revisions, he was right about a lot of it!

Nateskate · Apr 28, 2009

Wow? That must be frustrating. If you feel so strong about this, and you know a reliable third party, I'd ask their opinion.

In your case, it's not like you're shooting in the dark. You have an agent, so they must've seen something good in the story, especially to invest so much into it.

If you had a track record of several published books, you would have leverage, and could argue it's just salt-to-taste. The agent obviously has a vested interest here, as do you. That's why I think another pair of eyes may help you sort this out. Maybe a creative writing prof or someone very credible. Then they will either confirm this other person's point, or affirm your own, giving you more confidence to make your case.

ChristineR · Apr 28, 2009

Why can't you tell him what you've told us and ask him what he feels about your suggestions? If you can give him good reasons why it should be your way, then he'll either give you good reasons you're wrong, or agree with you. Make it clear to him that you'll do it his way if it comes to that. And for all you know, he suggested cutting out character A because he thought that you wanted to cut out character A when all along he would have preferred cutting character B. Or maybe he wants it to end girl/girl, so maybe you can do it your way if you just make B a girl. Or maybe there's a great scene in the novel with character A that he really wants you to keep, and you just have to give that scene to a different character.

You really won't know any of this until you ask.

Little Bird · Apr 28, 2009

Sage, that sounds really tough.

I, too, am newly agented and working on requested revisions.

When I first read the editorial letter from my agent I was shocked. My ms is YA? WHAT?

My initial gut reaction to many of the requested changes was, Oh, no! Please, no! But in my case, once I thought it through for awhile, I adjusted to the idea of writing for young adults, and realized the novel length must be reduced, and could see the benefits of removing certain parts.

HOWEVER: My agent wanted to explain my MC not participating in certain events in a way that I found utterly implausible. I thought of a way to cut what she wanted to cut, but to explain it in a much more plausible way.

So I thanked her for her helpful suggestions, pointing out every good thing I could think of about them, and then brought up the plausibility issue, and my proposed alternative. She said she loved my idea, and that it had some nice side-effects I hadn't even thought of.

Your case sounds a bit more difficult. When I found myself feeling resistance to her suggestions, I asked myself if this was really going to hurt my story, in terms of reader enjoyment, sales, etc. In my case, the only time I could say "yes" to that was with the one implausible suggestion.

I'd suggest asking yourself whether it's okay with you to write what may be a very different story, knowing that you've got an agent behind it who's willing to try to sell it that way. It's a question only you can answer.

If your answer is "yes," then ask yourself whether the version of the story your agent suggests could be an enjoyable read.

I don't think it would be out of line to ask your agent what appealed to her most about your story/ your writing. My agent told me what she loved about mine, and the changes make sense in light of that. While I didn't see that strength in the story on my own, I can see it clearly now, and see its appeal to others. The requested changes enhance this part of the story.

While it's important not to sound whiny or difficult, and to remember an agent (like the rest of us) doesn't want to be told her ideas are garbage, I don't think you have to remain silent on this. Be as complimentary as possible, but ask your agent what she sees as the strong point of your work. If she hasn't already told you, ask for her reasons behind the suggested changes. If you know what she's trying to achieve, maybe you can come up with an alternative way to get the story there.

Much hugs! :Hug2:

Sage · Apr 28, 2009

Thanks, guys.

Little Bird, I do know what attracted him to the novel. He really loves the concept behind it. It's contemp fantasy, and he loves the fantasy "creatures" (they're mostly human

) and how they interact with the world. Every communication I've had with him includes how much he loves the plot idea.

What's funny is that this novel started out without the character he wants to cut, but I added him in a few chapters in. So I know more or less how it would look without the character, and I don't believe it's as good a novel. I felt it was way too simple a plot line until I added him in, and suddenly it was much more developed. But even then the MC ended up with the other guy, not with the girl. Making her end up with the girl would simplify it even more, and takes away a lot of the MC's growth over the course of the novel.

Birol · Apr 28, 2009

Have you talked to the agent?

scope · Apr 28, 2009

It sounds like you have a major problem on your hands -- an almost complete disagreement with many of the revisions suggested by your agent.

Since you disagree with her on what appears to be the fundamental essence of your story, I would suggest you try to arrange a face to face and tell her why it would you believe as you do. Should the agents stick to her guns you have a very difficult decision to make -- do what the agent wants, or tell her no. To say no is obviously difficult since the agent may lose heart in your work, so that's something you have to keep in mind. It could cause a mutually agreeable parting of the ways, and your need to find a new agent. While you must keep these things it mind, remember that the agent isn't demanding that you do anything, she's suggesting ways which she believes will make your work a more potentially salable work. In the end it's a decision only you can make, and it's a tough one. I wish you luck.

Toothpaste · Apr 28, 2009

Sage, there have been many a time I've disagreed with my agent/editor about their suggestions. The way that I find it best to handle it is of course to first discuss it with the agent. You need to understand why he is making this suggestion, what his ultimate goal is with it. Often times the reason itself makes a lot of sense, it's just their suggested execution that's the problem. Then see if you can come up with a way to solve the problem your agent is having but in a totally different way. You're the writer. I'm not trying to get all artsy and precious or arrogant. But the fact is, editors and agents see what needs to be fixed, it's your job to figure out how to do the fixing. They can offer suggestions, but that isn't their expertise.

Don't be too precious about it. Like I said, ask why. Understand why. And then see what you can do with this knowledge. If after all that you are still at an impasse, then it's time for another serious conversation with your agent explaining why you simply can't do what he wants.

jimpickens · Apr 28, 2009

This is why I've decided to go the non agent self publishing route.

Stijn Hommes · Apr 29, 2009

Try figuring out the reason the agent want that particular character cut. Perhaps you can find another way to address whatever the fault is he or she sees.

Mr Flibble · Apr 29, 2009

You need to understand why he is making this suggestion, what his ultimate goal is with it. Often times the reason itself makes a lot of sense, it's just their suggested execution that's the problem. Then see if you can come up with a way to solve the problem your agent is having but in a totally different way.

OK, I haven't got an agent, but when my editor asked for changes she told me both what she wanted and why. On a couple of points I disagreed with the what / how, but could totally understand the why. Now these points weren't as major as yours but I think the point still stands.

Luckily when I sent revisions and said 'I did change this, but I thought this way worked better...' she agreed. For such a major revision, obviously you'd need to talk to your agent first. But if you can understand the why, you may be be able to discuss the how and come to an agreement. If you can't , then it's crunch time.

Good Luck

*hugs*

Philip64 · Apr 29, 2009

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. The solutions you have been offered may be a case in point. In truth, few agents (or indeed any third parties) can be expected to understand fully the implications of a particular change, especially when that change involves removing an element or character. You know the full significance of that element, and what may happen to the fabric of your book when that element is removed; but that's because you were there when it was all carefully assembled.

That said, it may be that your agent's suggestions have highlighted a genuine weakness. If so, it is probably best if you think how that weakness might be addressed. In my experience it's very rare for a third party who isn't a writer to come up with an optimal solution to a problem he or she may have sensed. (Which is why the best possible 'beta' reader is another writer). You need diplomacy and lateral thinking - diplomacy in acknowledging the problem, lateral thinking in fixing it in a way that doesn't threaten the integrity of the story.

http://thiswriterstale.blogspot.com/

miles · Apr 29, 2009

jimpickens said:
This is why I've decided to go the non agent self publishing route.

How'd that work out for you? :e2smack:

ChaosTitan · Apr 29, 2009

It's a pickle, Sage, and it sounds like you didn't know ahead of time the sort of changes your agent would ask for.

Talk to your agent. My offer of representation came with a breakdown of the changes my agent thought the book needed. Two of them were major. One I agreed with and has made the book insanely stronger for it (as well as adding more depth to my heroine). The second change I just couldn't do. So we talked on the phone about it. He told me why he thought the change was needed; I explained my side and offered other suggestions. We came to a compromise that worked.

If you truly think you are right, tell your agent why. Discuss both of your points of view on the change. Listen. Talk. See what happens.

*hugs*

DeleyanLee · Apr 29, 2009

Have you discussed with him WHY he thinks this will make the book stronger? If something doesn't make sense, it always helps to discover what the problem is and see if the suggestion will really solve it.

From what you describe, part of me wonders if this "best developed character in the novel" isn't stealing some part of your MC's thunder and casting a big shadow. If that's the real problem, then the answer might not to cut the "offeneding" character out but to boost the MC and maybe a couple other characters.

All commentary, even from an editor or agent, should be the opening of a dialogue. A compromise might not be as far off as you might fear.

True (though fifteenth hand) story:

A multi-published Romance author turned in her ms. When the comments came back from the editor, it was obvious that the editor absolutely hated the hero. Author calls up Editor and asks what's wrong, since Editor normally adores her heros. Editor says that he's crass, a complete worthless a$$hole and she can't stand them.

Through discussion, Author figures out that Editor's opinion of him completely changed at one scene early in the book. She looked at the scene, changed three words from the heroine's POV about her reaction to something hero says and sent the book back.

Editor called her up the next day and said he was the BEST hero Author had ever written.

A half-hour conversation and three words changed.

Open a dialogue and find out, as specifically as possible, where the problem lies.

Little Bird · Apr 29, 2009

ChaosTitan said:
It's a pickle, Sage, and it sounds like you didn't know ahead of time the sort of changes your agent would ask for.

Talk to your agent. My offer of representation came with a breakdown of the changes my agent thought the book needed. Two of them were major. One I agreed with and has made the book insanely stronger for it (as well as adding more depth to my heroine). The second change I just couldn't do. So we talked on the phone about it. He told me why he thought the change was needed; I explained my side and offered other suggestions. We came to a compromise that worked.

Ditto here. My offer was made in an editorial letter that basically said, "If you're willing to make these changes, I'd love to represent you."

The letter gave the reasons for the changes, and I came up with an alternative way to accomplish the same goal. Some family members told me "Just do what she wants," but I'm glad I brought up my concerns—My agent liked my ideas.

As a result of our back-and-forth, I came up with even more revision ideas that would make the story better.

If you communicate better in writing (especially when making a case), or if you're nervous, then consider e-mail rather than the phone. It worked for me.

sunandshadow · Apr 29, 2009

Agents and editors aren't gods, sometimes their suggestions are genuinely wrong. And a suggestion that might not be wrong in an absolute way might be wrong for a particular manuscript or author. My example: I submitted an outline for a graphic novel which was a historical fantasy set in an imaginary location. The editor who read it said I will buy this if you place it in the real historical setting of feudal Japan. I said, I don't like historicals that aren't fantasy, I don't know a damn thing about feudal Japan, and I suspect that if I researched it (which I didn't have time or desire to do) what I would find out would break the plot. How about if I develop my fantasy culture in more detail so the story feels more like a historical? She said no, do the research, if it breaks the plot, work around it. I said sorry, the story you want is not one I can write, I'll withdraw the outline. Call me if you ever want some fantasy. The moral of the story? That publisher went out of business a year later. *shrug*

SPMiller · Apr 29, 2009

There's someone on AW who says that a critic might be able to tell you what's wrong, but if they tell you how to fix it, they're often wrong.

The Lonely One · Apr 29, 2009

Wasn't that the mysterious Uncle Jim figure that comes around and scares off Tusken Raiders every so often?

ccarver30 · Apr 29, 2009

I hope it works out... and if he is a stickler, you can always get another agent... (hopefully)

Sage · Apr 29, 2009

When I was deciding between this agent and one who wasn't offering (pre-revisions) but had given me very detailed ideas of what her revisions would entail, I asked him for more details, and he was still very vague.

I did e-mail today and present my case for the one character and why I felt the other relationship was not right to focus on, and my agent said that he didn't think the major character was as interesting and that the girl/girl relationship is more appealing in YA.

Right now I'm considering combining the two characters. No matter what, I'd have to change the girl to make the relationship with the MC be justifiable, so I might as well do a combo of the two, giving her the traits that made him perfect for the MC.

He did say I could have her end up with the other guy in the original love triangle, but he wanted to see the girl be the main rival in that case. <sighs>

The only specific thing he said about why he doesn't like the guy is that he didn't like how often his diabetes comes up--something I had already agreed to trimming--and that he didn't find him as interesting.

stormie · Apr 29, 2009

Sage--is your agent my ex agent?! Only kidding. After offering representation, my ex then strongly suggested I change about half the novel. What I did wrong was to not question him and just do what he said I should do. That got us off on the wrong foot, so to speak. After the major revisions, the novel just seemed worse and no one wanted it. It died a tragic death. Moral--state what you feel. Weigh both sides.

It seems you're trying to compromise, which is good. You're not blindly following everything he asks. Would he be okay with you just revising that male MC some? As you said, you're cutting back on the diabetes topic. This could be a first step in the revision process. Then see what he thinks.

My two cents.

Gillhoughly · Apr 29, 2009

Go with your instincts. It's okay to disagree with your agent.

It is also okay for a MC to have more than one love interest.

Janet Evanovich's inept bounty hunter Stephanie Plum has two hot guys chasing her. There are fan groups for each guy, each rooting for Plum to end up with their favorite. She's been wavering between both guys for 14 books and counting.

In my own case, one of my editors wanted a minor character in on the big climax. She didn't have a solid reason for him to be there; she just happened to like him.

Problem was, none of the other characters wanted him there. They let me know about it with four days of writer's block and awkward wordage. Her suggestion went against all my instincts. Eventually I discarded it and let her know it didn't work for me.

She blew it off with, "Meh, it was just a suggestion."

It sounded more important than that when she made it. She seemed to think it would make or break the book. Yikes.

That taught me to always go with my gut, and that not all editors or agents have a handle on what's best for one's story.

badducky · Apr 29, 2009

One thing about Gill's answer I want to point out:

First Gill attempted to implement the suggestion.

Disagreeing is fine, but listen to what they have to say and try it first. It's not about your relationship with them. It's about how they wouldn't be in the position they have without pretty good story instincts, and it's worth taking any feedback into consideration.

Disagreeing with your agent

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