Hi all, asking for some input!

JimPMM · Apr 28, 2009

Hi
I'm just starting the process of developing a bit of software for novel writers to use. One thing I'm very keen on doing is ensuring it's built from the start with features and design which will be of benefit to those using it!
A lot of software I've seen is designed without much input from end users, so the software producer develops what they think the user needs - in the real world things just don't work that way.
And so to my request....
Any ideas at all about general usability, features, things to include, things to omit - anything at all would be greatly appreciated.
The fairly unique aspect of the software is that it will be completely online - you'll be able to use it from anywhere by logging in through a browser and away you go.
I've looked at New Novelist and Dramatica and have got some good ideas where to start on features, but I really want input from anyone who'd be willing to give it.

I look forward to hearing from anyone who's got a couple of minutes to jot down a few 'it'd be great if it could...' ideas.

Many thanks
Jim

CheshireCat · Apr 28, 2009

It'd be great if it could finish the WIP for me. In my voice and style, of course. Because, you know, I've got other stuff to do.

Anything else you're offering is offered by every word processor out there.

Sorry.

wandergirl · Apr 28, 2009

If it's just like Scrivener, but for a PC, I'd be interested.

FOTSGreg · Apr 28, 2009

Sorry to be facetious, but it would be nice if the program turned my computer on at pre-set times, flashed a message essentially saying "Wake up and WRITE, dumbas$ or else I'll start deleting random files!" and accompanied it with an obnoxious alarm that could not be ignored.

Any variation on the message would be appropriate such as,

"Get off the bed and write"
"Get your as$ in the chair and write"
"Stop munching chips and write"
etc.
etc.
etc.

Quossum · Apr 28, 2009

I want something that I can use to track characters across several novels. I have this big family saga thing, and a major character in one book is a minor one in another...I'd like to keep track of where everyone has appeared, how old they are during a particular novel, etc.

I also would like to be able to see a list of all the characters I've used. I'm bad about reusing names, then, what do you know, those characters end up in the same book, and it gets awkward.

--Q

ChristineR · Apr 28, 2009

Let's see...I can push a single button and get typewriter manuscript format, and I don't have to mess around setting things up, and it never, ever decides to switch me into a font I didn't ask for. Plus it does cover pages and chapter first pages automatically.

A combination database/calendar thing, that tracks scenes by page number, word count, revision history, date/time the scene is taking place, characters in the scene, plus notes on what happens and notes on what I think of the scene.

JimPMM · Apr 28, 2009

Wandergirl - thanks for the link, I hadn't come across Scrivener before. From first glance there may be some ideas I can use there. The main difference being that what I'm looking at doing would be totally online, so PC / Mac won't matter, it's all browser-based.
FOTSGreg - I need something along those lines every day!
Quossom - the tracking of characters across novels is an interesting one, and hadn't occured to me. Definately something that's going on the list! Character lists will be in there, and I'm thinking of a name generator...how much use would that be? The character tracking within a book (and possibly across books) kind of ties in with an idea around timelines and keeping track automatically of what objects (characters, locations, physical objects, etc) are involved in a particular scene or event.
ChristineR - database / calendar ties in with the timeline idea above, including notes, characters, objects, date/time, etc.

This is great stuff - I really appreciate your time in contributing to this.
Oh, and the idea of this request is NOT to promote the software or anything like that - I genuinely would like people's opinions/advice/ideas! It's also a stepping stone to getting that first novel written myself!

Regards
Jim

JulieHowe · Apr 28, 2009

The fairly unique aspect of the software is that it will be completely online - you'll be able to use it from anywhere by logging in through a browser and away you go.

I do this already by emailing a Word document to myself through Google. That way, wherever it is, there I am. Or something like that.

What I would like to have:

A timeline manager for my characters and my plotline to keep track of births, deaths, marriages, divorces, etc. Also, certain real-life events (such as the kidnapping of Patty Hearst and the unraveling of the Nixon Presidency) are relevant to my WIP. I would love to have a way of managing all of these details.

I'm not sure about the value of a character name generator.

The character tracking within a book (and possibly across books) kind of ties in with an idea around timelines and keeping track automatically of what objects (characters, locations, physical objects, etc) are involved in a particular scene or event.

I can see where the last option would be extremely useful.

sunandshadow · Apr 28, 2009

CheshireCat said:
Anything else you're offering is offered by every word processor out there.

Sorry.

That makes me think you've never seen newnovelist or dramatica - they are nothing like a word processor.

As for features, I think virtual notecards are a great element I've seen in other software but dramatica lacks. In general what I look for in a writers' aid program is plotting help including theme-to-plot brainstorming tools, plot templates/worksheets that are NOT based on that damned hero's journey... Something like "20 master plots and how to build them" but more in-depth. I've heard interesting things recently about Docter's W-plot worksheet but I guess it's only available to people who attend one of her workshops because there doesn't seem to be a copy of it floating around the internet anywhere. Oh and have you looked at the Storybase software? That's a fairly cool little idea generator, a cut above the average madlibs kind of thing.

Anyway I have a general interest in the development of this type of software, so keep me in mind if you want a co-developer or someone to bounce ideas off of.

cbenoi1 · Apr 28, 2009

I use yWriter. Something to check into if you want to develop something specifically for writers.

-cb

Matera the Mad · Apr 28, 2009

I hope no one is forgeting the importance of being able to export the data to some format that can be used by normal software. Otherwise it's just another proprietary millstone. The freedom to work offline is just as important -- if not more so -- than the ability to be bound to an unknown server somewhere that might not be as reliable as it is assumed to be.

I guess as far as I'm concerned, it's my work on my computer and/or my usb stick. It's fine to have an on-line backup, but not to depend completely on an online medium.

Birol · Apr 28, 2009

I find that it's completely online to be a large negative. This puts you in control of the files and, should you decide to close down, shut me out for any reason, or have technical problems on your end, all of my work is lost to me. I'm entirely at your mercy, dependent on you to have done back-ups, give me my files in a format I can use elsewhere should I decide to leave, etc.

This has nothing to do with what type of software you are offering; it's the same distrust I have of any service that's entirely online. If I fail do to timely backups on my computer and lose my data, that's one thing. If you do, that's quite another.

Stijn Hommes · Apr 29, 2009

I'm not worried like Birol is. The services I use are solid in their backup policies and if they ever have a problem the backup is soon online. I also like some database feature that allows tracking characters across several books. One shouldn't forget spell check, of course.

Software I've seen so far either restrict database entries to one novel, or they require stuff I don't care about to be filled out. I would like full reign on what information is included. Having other database entities like ideas, chapters and scenes so you can pick and shuffle in a brainstorm area by moving them around and connecting them with arrows would be my preference. Basically my brainstorm method, but online.

NightOwl · Apr 29, 2009

I too am with Birol. I actually see only online as a large negative fact to the software. I'd much rather a stand alone program that runs on my machine. Maybe you can have the online portal too and the software on the computer can sync with the online one when you have a connection.

There's a couple reasons for this. I'm not always at an internet connection. Hotspots are more and more common. But I have my laptop with me if I get an idea I don't want to have to hunt down a hotspot to be able to log in and then work. I like being anywhere and just opening my computer and going away.

The other reason is that internet connections in general are always dropping, if my internet goes down and I have to wait a week for the cable company to come out and fix it I don't want to be separated from my work or being able to write.

I'm always looking for software to help plan/outline tho, maybe there can be a compromise between offline/online? Niches for everything tho, I'm sure there's a lot of people who always have an internet connection handy and would love this.

Enna · Apr 29, 2009

I use Storymill- you can try a free demo on apple.com for more ideas. I love love love it. Of all the crazy things it can do- and I know I'm not using it to its full potential- my favorite is the blue screen. I can change to window to fill the entire screen, with a blue background and white typeset that's easy on the eyes. It's less distracting to write with this (for me anyway).

Storymill also has different templates- like the Snowflake method, or a submission tracking system- and you can create your own template too. For one project I created a template based off one of Holly Lisle's workshops, it was really cool.

Izz · Apr 29, 2009

I wonder (and this is an entirely serious question which i've wondered for some time) how many people who use novel writing software are published novelists?

Enna · Apr 29, 2009

I've seen several published novelists mention using Scrivener on their blogs, that seems to be a popular one.

JimPMM · Apr 29, 2009

Hi
Thanks again for all the responses, it's great for helping to steer the way!
JulieHowe - The timeline manager is a must by the looks of it as lots of people have mentioned it to me, and I really like your idea of integrating it with real-world events as well.
Sunandshadow - thanks for the Storybase heads-up, I'll take a look at it. You've raised a point, along with several other people, about 'the hero's journey' and how everything seems to be geared to it in most software I've seen. It's really important, sure, but I think more flexibility is key. The one common issue I have with current software is that it's too rigid in what you have to have in the novel and how you approach it. Also, thank you for the offer of help - I will more than likely be taking you up on it! Feel free to PM me.
Matera the Mad - export is definately on the list, as you said it's pointless giving people yet another proprietary format. What formats would people like to see?
Birol and NightOwl - I totally see what you're saying. Server reliability aside (I'm looking at multiple-hosting solutions to minimise risk) I can see that completly-online may be a negative point. Maybe provide some way of a reduced-functionality offline version? The attraction of the online solution to me is the access-anywhere, and no need to worry about compatibility or software installation. But your points are very valid and I think it's worth looking at some form of offline.
Enna - sometimes the simplest things are the ones I miss! The ability to change the background and text colour is definately going on the list! Thank you.
Stijn - You've raised a point which leads into one of the main concepts I'm looking at:
A completely dynamic and flexible system. Very little is pre-defined even down to what's in the novel and how you define things. At a high level what I'd like to implement is the ability for the user to define 'objects' - these could be characters, physical objects, locations, whatever - and assign attributes to them. So you don't have to fill out a specific list of attributes for your characters that someone else has decided are important to the writing of the novel - you decide what's important. I think this gives good flexibility. Obviously there are some things which are essential and would not be user-defined, but even these could be at least 'tweaked' by the user.
What's people's feelings on this point?

Once again, I really appreciate your input.
Regards
Jim

Bufty · Apr 29, 2009

If you wrote (and finished) your novel first you would have a far better idea of the benefit -if any- in what you are contemplating doing.

JimPMM said:
... It's also a stepping stone to getting that first novel written myself!

Regards
Jim

Izz · Apr 29, 2009

Enna said:
I've seen several published novelists mention using Scrivener on their blogs, that seems to be a popular one.

Scrivener is more a data management tool than a 'novel writing' tool, in my mind. It's main purpose is to be a filing system and provide features that most word processors provide but people don't know how to access.

What i'm really asking about are all the programs that are thrown out there with the catchphrase (in general terms) 'use this to construct the perfect novel' and provide plots-in-a-can and other gimmicks.

JimPMM · Apr 29, 2009

This is definately not going to be one of those 'magic solutiuon' bits of software. It's a tool / aid which makes the writing process easier and a management tool for the vast amounts of information, ideas, notes, research, times, etc that goes in to writing.

Regards
Jim

Izz · Apr 29, 2009

JimPMM said:
This is definately not going to be one of those 'magic solutiuon' bits of software. It's a tool / aid which makes the writing process easier and a management tool for the vast amounts of information, ideas, notes, research, times, etc that goes in to writing.

Regards
Jim

Then using scrivener as a guide is probably a very good idea

NeuroFizz · Apr 29, 2009

I use WORD. If I can't keep track of the various details, directions, and quirks of the story I'm writing without some special software, something is way wrong.

Enna · Apr 29, 2009

Of course...after all, writers used to keep track of it all on paper, without Word!

When I started writing I used Word, and sometimes Excel for plotting, and it was all good. Storymill just helps me organize a little better- plus, like I said, I love the blue background/white typeset. If Storymill disappeared I would have no problem going back to Word, but I like the organizational help.

JimPMM · Apr 29, 2009

That's what I'm looking to create - an organisational tool which helps develop and keep track of things, hopefully speeding up the process and allowing the writer to concentrate more on the task of actually writing! It's not intended to replace the user's favourite word processor, or magically write it for you!
There's some great comments and ideas turning up here and I thank you for taking the time. Those who say they wouldn't want something like this - I totally understand what you're saying and do respect the fact that the whole writing process is a very individual thing - there IS no one-size-fits-all solution, and the fact is many people are more than happy with a standard word-processor and the ideas in their head.
I guess I'm trying to provide a little bit of story / data organisational and development help to those who would need it.

Regards
Jim

Hi all, asking for some input!

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