Total Novice Needing help

Just for a moment, forget books.

Read 100 screenplays. Start here: http://www.script-o-rama.com/table.shtml

If that doesn't teach you something then sure, go back to the books.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

Yep

I agree with the above post. I read a script a week usually. I read movies that I've seen and learn how to accomplish things on paper. I'm not advertising or anything but one book has carried me through my whole process and that is David Trotter's Screenwriting Bible. Get familiar and read this site as much as possible. And the best advice I ever got was "JUST WRITE".

Reading scripts is a great way to see HOW things are done. Reading scripts however does not let you know WHAT is being done or WHY things are being done.

Watching Eric Clapton and Eddie Van Halen play the guitar will not teach you how to read music or know what chords they are playing or what chord progression is or any of the many things one needs to know to learn to play the guitar well.

Going to the ballet on a daily basis - will not teach you the proper way to do a plie or turn you into a ballet dance no matter how many hours you spend in front of your own mirror turning out your toes. Real training is required.

For a novice who knows nothing about the basics of storytelling, screenplay structure etc. The what and the why is just as (dare I say more) important than the how.

No matter how many scripts you read, it will not tell you what a character arc is or give you tips and tools for developing one. Reading scripts will not give you the definition of an inciting incident or tell you what a beat is or how to build them.

Do not rely on reading scripts to teach you the craft. Do not expect to have any real success unless you understand the craft.

Some good books about the craft:

Screenplay by Syd Field
Story by Robert McKee
Lew Hunter's Screenwriting 434 by Lew Hunter
The Screenwriter's Bible by David Trottier

I don't think anyone can tell you what's the one grand book that you need. Go and get whatever book you feel that's the most comfortable with.

"And the best advice I ever got was "JUST WRITE"."

Exactly. I've known plenty of people who've talked up a storm on what book or screenplay that they were going to write. In most cases, they never got past page one, if they even started.

So basically just listen to the previous two posters.

Also

you can go over to Bill Martell's script secrets and read his tip of the day.

Every day he posts new articles and tips that cover every facet of screenwriting.

Follow these links and read these two articles FIRST.

http://www.scriptsecrets.net/articles/zombie.htm

and

http://www.scriptsecrets.net/tips/tip166.htm

Those will explain what you ought to do with your idea. The angles you can take with it.

Next skip over to Wordplay and read the articles there.

Also I second The Screenwriter's Bible.
It's kept up to date and is almost required reading.

HOw NOT to write a screenplay is really good.
by Denny Martin Flinn


Read The Bible first and THEN read some scripts.

Then ask questions on the boards.
We will be more then happy to help you out.

Welcome!

I agree with reading a book or two first and then hitting the screenplays. It is a good idea to read the screenplay and then watch the DVD along with it. Watch the timing of the movie and you will hopely get a good idea on structure. Always good to look at different genres and also some writer/director movies, such as Sideways, since they are in control of the story from page to screen.

Good luck with your writing.

"Pick up your pencil and start writing," said the all-knowing book.
"What is pencil?" asked the bewildered student.

You know, before these how-to books came into being, learning screenwriters would read screenplays. And some of them ended up doing a pretty good job, too.

I'd like to point out that Daniel didn't just say he's new to screenwriting, he said he's new to storywriting.

Reading screenplays isn't just a pointer to how screenplays are formatted, it's a graphic illustration of how stories are written and developed. Seeing how a screenplay translates into an actual film you've seen is in my opinion a far better way to climb onto what's likely to be a long learning curve.

What's the point in paying for books when you don't know whether you'll ever be able to become a screenwriter? Maybe reading a stack of scripts first will allow Daniel to decide whether he's cut out for this crazy job.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

"What's the point in paying for books when you don't know whether you'll ever be able to become a screenwriter? Maybe reading a stack of scripts first will allow Daniel to decide whether he's cut out for this crazy job."

That's a good point, because not everyone has the discipline to set down and write 90 to 120 pages. Some people have difficulty going over 1 page.

If you are able to write 90 to 120 pages, even if it is totally awful, you've at least most people could. Once you realize you have this kind of discipline and are commited, then it may make better sense to buy books or whatever.

The biggest thing I tell new writers is to watch films, not for enjoyment, but to study them as if you were reverse engineering them.

Rent a movie that you (and others) consider to be well made. Any of the AFI top 100 would be good, or if you love or want to write a particular genre (horror, for example), rent a favorite.

While you watch it, have a pad and paper at the ready and make notes and observations of things. I used to plot graphs, write out each scene heading and how long each scene was, all sorts of stuff. I got knee deep into the film and got my hands dirty.

Ask questions.
How long does it take before you know what the movie is about?
When is the main character (hero) introduced-- the villain?
At what point does your hero realize he/she needs to do something?
When does the hero confront the villain and win?
How long after the win does the film go on (epilogue)?
If the thing that makes the hero win, hinted at or shown earlier and if so, when?
At what time intervals does the conflict or action rise?
(you'll find ten minutes is a common rule for any action based film, that's because in the old days a reel was ten minutes and they always wanted to end the real on a conflicting scene.)

This is just a short example. Write everything down you notice, no matter how small. Look at the pacing, the characters, leave no stone unturned. Write out some of the dialog or try and write the action in a scene, visually.

Now. Once you have done this, do it again with other films. Start looking for common things in different scripts, as those are the rules that all stories follow.

Sure, you should read the books, learn everything you can, but after.
I find it is much more rewarding (and easier to understand and remember theory in the long run) to deconstruct a film on your own first, then read the experts theories and see how close you were.

As for reading scripts, that too is valuable but again I would do so after I tried to see the script in my head first, because a good script doesn't make a good film, but a good film is made despite of its script's quality. With the above example of trying to write the action, looking at what you wrote and then the script, helps better understand how and how much to write.

That's it. It helped me and hope it does for you. I understand that not everyone can do it this way and again, this does not take the place of learning from classes, books, mentors and articles, but can be a good supplement or a jumping off point for those trying screenwriting out.

dpaterso said:

"What's the point in paying for books when you don't know whether you'll ever be able to become a screenwriter? Maybe reading a stack of scripts first will allow Daniel to decide whether he's cut out for this crazy job.

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No offense Derek, you know I love ya, man - but this is an absolutely ludicrous argument on several levels.

How can you tell if you're cut out for something or more importantly will enjoy doing it by merely looking at the finished product of those who can do it? You won't know if you like doing it until you try doing it, and you won't know what to do until you learn how. People who are good at what they do - make it look EASIER than it actually is. Ever watch a pro tennis player return a 100 mph serve? Ever try to do it yourself?

My friend took up yoga. She did not learn how to do it by watching others do it - although watching others was helpful, she learned by taking classes with an instructor who explained all the poses to her and gave her assistance in moving her body the correct way. If she'd relied solely on trying the poses based on what she saw others doing, she probably would have injured herself. When she started she had no illusions that she'd ever be able to get to the advanced level of all the poses. Today she teaches yoga.

She had no idea if she would like doing it, yet she paid for a class. We pay money upfront to see movies, buy books, dvd's, cd's without having any idea if we will like them or not. We often invest money up-front to pursue hobbies or interests before knowing if we will be good at or like that hobby. You buy a guitar, a tennis racket, a used set of golf clubs, because it looks like something you might like to pursue. And once you start pursuing it you may decide it's not for you - whose garage or basement isn't full of the remnants from hobbies that turned out not to be for them?

Why should this particular pursuit be any different? Big deal if someone spends 20 bucks for a book or a couple hundred for a seminar or class to learn about screenwriting and somewhere down the line discovers they don't want to pursue it? Why is that so awful?

"How can you tell if you're cut out for something or more importantly will enjoy doing it by merely looking at the finished product of those who can do it? You won't know if you like doing it until you try doing it, and you won't know what to do until you learn how. People who are good at what they do - make it look EASIER than it actually is. Ever watch a pro tennis player return a 100 mph serve? Ever try to do it yourself?"

When I was 16 years old, I wanted to be a veterinarian. So I went to a high school seminar that allowed students to see what vets do. I was so grossed out that I decided there was no way in hell I wanted to be a vet.

Thank god I didn't go to vet school and then decide that wasn't for me.

A lot of other professions do allow young people to merely sit back and watch them to see if they would be interested in pursuing the profession further (such as taking up formal studies).

Before I went to Cornell University, I visited the campus in order to see if I would like going there. Based on what I saw from the visit, I decided I liked it and went. Thank god I didn't go to some university I never saw, and then decided that I didn't like it.

IWrite, $20 or $750, may not be a lot to you, but there are people who can barely afford their rent and who are literally penching pennies to try to buy food.

You seem to be blind to this.

If someone isn't even sure that he or she wants to or can be a writer, there's no need at that point for them to invest a lot of money at that point.

Go to the library, where you should be able to find books on writing, and then find internet articles from good sources. Read scripts online. And then tackle your first script. If you liked the process, then INVEST money into the process. Not before.

I never invested in money in any formal study until I had totally checked out whatever I was thinking about studying, and was 100% convinced that was for me.

JustinoXXV said:

"IWrite, $20 or $750, may not be a lot to you, but there are people who can barely afford their rent and who are literally penching pennies to try to buy food.

You seem to be blind to this.

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Oh please, Justino - nowhere in his post did toll say he couldn't afford to buy a book - he was specifically asking for which books were good - and he was steered away from books, and told he'd learn just by reading scripts. Which I think is bad advice.

I realize not everyone can afford a workshop or class - which is why I always point out books as the next best thing. A good book on the subject costs less than 20 bucks, it's not about to break the bank account of the vast majority of those who can afford a computer and internet access to check out this site to begin with. And there's always libraries where you can borrow the books for free.

You act like I'm some kind of a snob - what I am is someone who not only loves but also respects the craft and I expect others who want to pursue it, to respect it enough to take the time to really learn it. It is a difficult craft to learn and most people can use all the help they can get. What's wrong with steering them in the direction that will make them the best writers they can possibly be - as opposed to the cheapest direction?
.

"What's wrong with steering them in the direction that will make them the best writers they can possibly be - as opposed to the cheapest direction?"

Nothing at all.

Ultimately, if someone is interested in becoming a professional screenwriter, they likely will have no choice but to shell out considerable sums of money.

While I thought reading scripts was okay, I did tell the original poster to get whatever book he thought was best. It's actually better to thumb through various books on screenwriting yourself to find out which ones are best for you.

I guess as someone who pinches pennies, I don't spend money on classes or books unless it's something I'm dedicated to. I can't imagine someone putting down money for a screenwriting class if he or she isn't fully devoted to it. That's just my personal bias, though. And that's why I reacted the way I did.

IWrite, really, our mutual love aside, methinks it's unwise to compare learning to write with learning to play the guitar or ballet dancing or taking up yoga.

We're taught to read and write from childhood. Unless we fell asleep in English class, or have no aptitude or desire to pursue writing, we already possess the basic skills to write creatively. Writing music, now that's different, you'd have to learn how musical notation works otherwise all those marks and ticks and symbols would be meaningless, you wouldn't know where to start. But we already know the language of writing -- we speak it every day. And creative writing is something that can be learned, simply and effectively, by reading other creative material in order to best understand what works and what doesn't work. Would you try to write a novel before you'd read novels, or short stories before you'd read any short stories? Only the geekiest fool easily parted from his money would buy a book titled "How To Write A Bestselling Novel" without actually reading novels first in order to know what novels are. They're available everywhere. Reading them will allow you to understand the medium, understand how stories are created, developed, resolved.

And ditto with screenwriting. Read enough screenplays and you'll not only learn the fundamentals of storywriting, you'll also pick up much of what you need to know about screenwriting without needing to refer to a how-to book. In many respects you'll be ahead of the how-to book already.

Don't get me wrong, I'll happily accept your opinion on this subject, and Joe's, and everyone else's, but do try to bear in mind that's all it is -- opinion. The bombastic arguments and attitudes being aired in this thread -- my way is the only way! all other ways are ludicrous! -- are pretty worrying.

-Derek
Derek's Web Page - stories, screenplays, novels, insanity.

I agree with all of your comments to some degree..

Sure, everyone (hopefully) can write. They know their ABC's and have read stories throughout their life from children's board books all the way up to Hemmingway. They have written school reports and perhaps even a short story or article at one point too.

Screenwriting, like all art forms, even writing and playing music, takes more than skill, its takes a talent.

Anyone can write a screenplay, but not everyone can tell a good story. Sit around a campfire or listen to stand up comedians or listen to people at parties and you'll quickly find that not everyone possesses the same level of talent needed to deliver what obviously must work better in their own head or what they heard.

Determining talent can only be done by doing, not studying, by practicing their skills and see if the cream rises to the top.

Of course, you need the rules, the basics, the theory, the studying parts in order to know how to do it. Talent alone won't get you far.

Books, classes, articles, mentors are all good sources of knowledge and no one is better or exclusive to the others. If you can't afford a book, go to the library. If you can't afford an analysis or mentor, join a writers group with competent and perhaps successful members. As your interest, skill and talent develops, invest more time and energy (money) into your passion.

So, I agree that you need to learn the mechanics and theory and do so with what you can comfortably afford. Do not eat dog food so you can take a McKee class.

Reading produced screenplays has it's place too, but not everyone can deconstruct a screenplay to learn from and also, since most scripts are shooting scripts or from another time and rule set, copying from what you learned there may be a detriment. If I read "Gone with the Wind" and then wrote a script using the same style and formatting, you can bet dollar to donuts your script (although may be good) will not be marketable today and will not look like those scripts written today.

And one more thing.

Use common sense.

No one would dare buy a vetrinary clinic or the equiptment needed to operate Fido's gall bladder without going to Vet school first. No one would go to an expensive university without visiting it or getting a recomendation from a trusted person (or relative who went there). No one would buy a ten thousand dollar vintage Les Paul guitar without starting out with a cheaper learner model. And no one would book Giant's Stadium for their start of their Rock and Roll World Tour without learning to play the darn instrument first.

Price is relevant in everything we do in life with the comfort level and financial status we are in. Donald Trump could take McKee's class on a lark (although it doesn't look it, he probably spends more on his haridresser), but a Fry Cook at MickyD's would have to settle for reading back issues of Creative Screenwriting at the Library or online.

I know I am sounding harsh in tone, but it really burns me up when we argue so much over stuff that is really common sense. Sure, we all have our little things that we like to do and advise, but let's look at the big picture too. We are all right if we combine our opinions, not do one over the other.

Joe Calabrese said:

Sure, everyone (hopefully) can write. They know their ABC's and have read stories throughout their life from children's board books all the way up to Hemmingway. They have written school reports and perhaps even a short story or article at one point too.

Screenwriting, like all art forms, even writing and playing music, takes more than skill, its takes a talent.

Anyone can write a screenplay, but not everyone can tell a good story. Sit around a campfire or listen to stand up comedians or listen to people at parties and you'll quickly find that not everyone possesses the same level of talent needed to deliver what obviously must work better in their own head or what they heard.

Determining talent can only be done by doing, not studying, by practicing their skills and see if the cream rises to the top.

Of course, you need the rules, the basics, the theory, the studying parts in order to know how to do it. Talent alone won't get you far.

Books, classes, articles, mentors are all good sources of knowledge and no one is better or exclusive to the others. If you can't afford a book, go to the library. If you can't afford an analysis or mentor, join a writers group with competent and perhaps successful members. As your interest, skill and talent develops, invest more time and energy (money) into your passion.

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Joe - you have so hit the nail on the head with this post.

Because we all learn to construct sentences in 2nd grade - people seem to assume that anyone can write anything. Nobody seems to take either the mechanics of a particular type of writing or the issue of talent into account.

There is both a talent required and a craft that must be understood for all forms of professional writing. Even copywriting requires an understanding of advertising principles and an ability to develop creative concepts that communicate specific ideas, generate interest and spark specific action (i.e. product purchase) within the perameters of print ads, commercials, billboards etc. There is a very specific structure to crafting a news article. People must learn the principles of news writing before they can get a job writing at even the smallest local paper.

Only 2% of novels submitted for publication get published. That means 98% are rejected. And novels at least are stories told using prose - which is the basic way we all learn to write. Ask anyone who's looked through a slushpile and they will tell you that almost all get rejected because they are just plain BAAAD. Whether it's because of a lack of talent or a lack of understanding about crafting a story - bad is still bad.

And even great novelists - cannot necessarily grasp the craft of screenwriting. F Scott Fitgerald and many other of the biggest novelists of their day - tanked when they came out to Hollywood. They could not make the transition to telling a story in the screenplay format. So clearly storytelling talent alone is not enough to make a successful screenwriter.

Every PROFESSIONAL screenwriter I know has a shelf-full of books on writing in general and screenwriting in particular which they still refer to from time to time.

"Reading produced screenplays has it's place too, but not everyone can deconstruct a screenplay to learn from and also, since most scripts are shooting scripts or from another time and rule set, copying from what you learned there may be a detriment. If I read "Gone with the Wind" and then wrote a script using the same style and formatting, you can bet dollar to donuts your script (although may be good) will not be marketable today and will not look like those scripts written today."


For these cases, you'll need to refer to books, your mentor/instructor, and online articles from professional screenwriters to know what it and isn't permitted in a spec script.

As for the older scripts, you should stay away from them. But by just picking up scripts blindly, you wouldn't know that. You'd have to learn what things to avoid from shooting scripts to know not to use them (Camera angles, transitions, too many POVs), among other no nos.

Both IWrite and Derek do have some valid points.

"There is both a talent required and a craft that must be understood for all forms of professional writing. Even copywriting requires an understanding of advertising principles and an ability to find creative concepts that communicate specific ideas withing the perameters of print ads, commercials, billboards etc. There is a very specific structure to crafting a news article. People must learn the principles of news writing before they can get a job writing at even the smallest local paper."

This is true.

So maybe can conclude this discussion by saying people should both buy books/take classes/go to a mentor AND read screenplays?

And not necessarily in that order. I see nothing wrong with reading screenplays before you decide to go buy books or take classes. Or if you're committed to it, there is nothing wrong with you putting down hard cash on the classes or book first.

Whatever the individual decides is best for him/her.

http://64.78.28.161/boards/showthread.php?t=10179&page=3

Here's a thread on Done Deal (www.scriptsales.com under the Agents section) which gives the worst advice I've ever seen online.

The claim there is that a marginal or poor script can be sold if you network with the right people.

Uh huh. And there's a bridge I can sell people in Brooklyn. You might want to check that thread out just for your own amusement, Iwrite.

JustinoXXV said:

The claim there is that a marginal or poor script can be sold if you network with the right people.

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Sounds right on to me...have you been to the movies lately?

But how many Hollywood releases out right now were written by first-time writers on spec? Not many. I know Monster-In-Law was, but they changed 60 percent of the script by the time it was all finished. It might've been a decent script in it's early forms, who knows?

I guess what I'm saying is that yeah there's a lot of crap out there but the majority of it is written by established screenwriters who probably got their foot in the door with a decent spec and then got the crap gig as a rewrite job on assignment.

Have you seen the slush pile at an agency, production company, or publisher?

I'm told by people on the development end and by editors vast numbers of people who submit haven't learned the structure or even the basic format.

So a movie might not be the best movie, but chances are it's script was sustantially better than pretty much anything in the slush pile.

simpoet said:

FIelds' book is so simple I dont know why I havent read it before. The paradigm he has in there works with every movie. I didnt think so, so I watched a ton of them trying to find one that didnt...but they all do!

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Before anyone begins a debate on the merits or demerits of Field's paradigm - the point is that he provides one. He lays out and teaches a way to structure a story how to build a scene, how to build a character arc. He talks about form and format and dialogue and description. He breaks everything down and explains what each element of a script is and then he shows how those elements fit in the big picture. He gives a solid foundation.

Other experts approach scriptwriting from other directions. One or more of those ways may resonate better with a particular writer and their particular process. But the point is that ALL these guys, Field, McKee, Truby, Hunter give you a foundation. A basic understanding, tools and a vocabulary that you cannot get from reading scripts alone.