I think I'll be surprised if anyone actually reads this post, considering the length, let alone answers it, considering the topic - lol. But I'll try.
I'm going to put at the top of this thread three personal comments, just to stave off the "well, if this happened to you...", or "if you had kids...":
1. No, I don't have children. I have a total of 32 nieces and nephews, though, with the ones from my husbands side, and god knows how many grandnieces and grand nephews. I was very close to my 18 nieces and nephews as they were growing up.
2. I'm 48 now, and when I was five, I was repeatedly molested by a neighbor, pre-internet, and pre-rampant child pornography.
3. I'm not sure where I stand with all of this. Teens have sex; people write about it; it gets published. If it's a 16 and 17 year old, while it isn't something I go looking for, I'll still read the story. If it's a 16 year old and a 40 year old...nope. Should a story like that be illegal? I don't know. And even with kids having sex with kids, when you hit 15 years old, I think "Hmmm" (which is pretty funny, because I lost my virginity at 15); if it's 14? "Nuh uh." A 17 and 19 year old? Not a problem.
About a week ago there was an interesting (to me) discussion on the legalities of erotica. Unfortunately, it wasn't the appropriate thread for the discussion, so I started this one.
That thread (and sort of the place where the conversation started) is here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3351760&postcount=25.
One of the rules for the SYW Erotica forum is underage characters in sexual situations are absolutely not permitted. I understand and absolutely agree with this rule; wouldn't want it any other way. The thought of what might get posted without that rule would send me running in the other direction.
Recently I posted a story in one of the practice exercise threads about a woman explaining to her husband how she lost her virginity under the bleachers. It was just her describing it - the only sex that went on in "real time" was between her and her husband. When I wrote it, I pictured her as 16 and him as 17, but for purposes of the board, I made 'em 18.
This started a long conversation between Brindle and I, both non-lawyer types, about what is and is not legal, erotica-wise.
Essentially, Brindle initially thought that any erotica story that included someone under 18 was against the law. I differed in opinion. She finally said:
In the past 35 years there's been one prosecution for obscenity/child pornography for text only works. It was a woman named Karen Fletcher, who was indicted in October of 2005 and finally pled guilty in August of 2008. Her site was password protected, and she charged $10.00 per month. Her stories were about sexual molestation and violent abuse of children, including rape, torture and murder of kids from infants to teens. She had 29 members. (Look her up, it's an interesting story.)
Apparently one of the big issues wasn't just the content, but that she was charging for it. Ms. Fletcher is an agoraphobic – has big problems leaving the house, so much so that she was excused from many court proceedings – and so finally did a plea bargain because she just wasn't up to the emotional stress of the whole trial thing. Since the case never went to court, no precedents were set. Many, many legal pundits believe she would have won.
I started out trying to find out just what was actually illegal, text-based erotica-wise, and it's still pretty ambiguous. Even the government website, the "Obscenity Protection Task Force" at http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/optf/ doesn't mention text. Only images.
One of the things I pointed out to Brindle was some pretty blatant text from Judy Blume's "Forever", a YA novel that's actually found in some middle schools. My born-again Christian sister would consider it pornography.
The day after the original thread, I started Susie Bright's "The Best of American Erotica 2007". The fifth story in that book was about two tenth graders screwing, unbeknownst (mostly) to her father, who was in the room with them. I'm not sure it'd be considered literary.
I didn't have a problem with it.
The third story in the book is an excerpt from the late Octavia Butler's novel "The Fledgling". I haven't read this book, but it's some sort of vampire thing. One of the main characters in the excerpt is someone who looks 10 or 11, who eventually tells the adult that she's with that it's OK to screw her, and he does. There really isn't enough context in this excerpt to tell how old she is, only her thinking that she's older than 10 or 11...she seems to have a bit of amnesia. That excerpt, out of context with the rest of the story, sort of "ewwed" me, and I love Octavia Butler.
What are your thoughts, where is your line on:
Brindle wouldn't even read the Judy Blume YA novel. I'd read that, but when older adults come into the mix, no way.
I know people who think that all erotica (even really mild stuff, just a little racier than a bodice ripper) should be made illegal both on the internet and in print.
And then there are other topics - should positively eroticized rape fiction be illegal? Or censored? They've successfully prosecuted a producer fictionalized rape/snuff films (they had to go through some hoops to do it) but those laws all apply to depictions, not the written word. (Not sure precisely where I stand on this one, either.)
Anyone ever had anything censored? Where are your personal "lines"?
I just think it's an interesting question.
I'll close with a quote by one of my favorite authors, Neil Gaimon: "If you accept -- and I do -- that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said."
J.
I'm going to put at the top of this thread three personal comments, just to stave off the "well, if this happened to you...", or "if you had kids...":
1. No, I don't have children. I have a total of 32 nieces and nephews, though, with the ones from my husbands side, and god knows how many grandnieces and grand nephews. I was very close to my 18 nieces and nephews as they were growing up.
2. I'm 48 now, and when I was five, I was repeatedly molested by a neighbor, pre-internet, and pre-rampant child pornography.
3. I'm not sure where I stand with all of this. Teens have sex; people write about it; it gets published. If it's a 16 and 17 year old, while it isn't something I go looking for, I'll still read the story. If it's a 16 year old and a 40 year old...nope. Should a story like that be illegal? I don't know. And even with kids having sex with kids, when you hit 15 years old, I think "Hmmm" (which is pretty funny, because I lost my virginity at 15); if it's 14? "Nuh uh." A 17 and 19 year old? Not a problem.
About a week ago there was an interesting (to me) discussion on the legalities of erotica. Unfortunately, it wasn't the appropriate thread for the discussion, so I started this one.
That thread (and sort of the place where the conversation started) is here: http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showpost.php?p=3351760&postcount=25.
One of the rules for the SYW Erotica forum is underage characters in sexual situations are absolutely not permitted. I understand and absolutely agree with this rule; wouldn't want it any other way. The thought of what might get posted without that rule would send me running in the other direction.
Recently I posted a story in one of the practice exercise threads about a woman explaining to her husband how she lost her virginity under the bleachers. It was just her describing it - the only sex that went on in "real time" was between her and her husband. When I wrote it, I pictured her as 16 and him as 17, but for purposes of the board, I made 'em 18.
This started a long conversation between Brindle and I, both non-lawyer types, about what is and is not legal, erotica-wise.
Essentially, Brindle initially thought that any erotica story that included someone under 18 was against the law. I differed in opinion. She finally said:
I've done research on this since then (about eight hours at this point) and here's what I've found:
In the past 35 years there's been one prosecution for obscenity/child pornography for text only works. It was a woman named Karen Fletcher, who was indicted in October of 2005 and finally pled guilty in August of 2008. Her site was password protected, and she charged $10.00 per month. Her stories were about sexual molestation and violent abuse of children, including rape, torture and murder of kids from infants to teens. She had 29 members. (Look her up, it's an interesting story.)
Apparently one of the big issues wasn't just the content, but that she was charging for it. Ms. Fletcher is an agoraphobic – has big problems leaving the house, so much so that she was excused from many court proceedings – and so finally did a plea bargain because she just wasn't up to the emotional stress of the whole trial thing. Since the case never went to court, no precedents were set. Many, many legal pundits believe she would have won.
I started out trying to find out just what was actually illegal, text-based erotica-wise, and it's still pretty ambiguous. Even the government website, the "Obscenity Protection Task Force" at http://www.usdoj.gov/criminal/optf/ doesn't mention text. Only images.
One of the things I pointed out to Brindle was some pretty blatant text from Judy Blume's "Forever", a YA novel that's actually found in some middle schools. My born-again Christian sister would consider it pornography.
The day after the original thread, I started Susie Bright's "The Best of American Erotica 2007". The fifth story in that book was about two tenth graders screwing, unbeknownst (mostly) to her father, who was in the room with them. I'm not sure it'd be considered literary.
I didn't have a problem with it.The third story in the book is an excerpt from the late Octavia Butler's novel "The Fledgling". I haven't read this book, but it's some sort of vampire thing. One of the main characters in the excerpt is someone who looks 10 or 11, who eventually tells the adult that she's with that it's OK to screw her, and he does. There really isn't enough context in this excerpt to tell how old she is, only her thinking that she's older than 10 or 11...she seems to have a bit of amnesia. That excerpt, out of context with the rest of the story, sort of "ewwed" me, and I love Octavia Butler.
What are your thoughts, where is your line on:
- This should be illegal, this should not
- This should be censored, this should not
- This should be kept out of schools
Brindle wouldn't even read the Judy Blume YA novel. I'd read that, but when older adults come into the mix, no way.
I know people who think that all erotica (even really mild stuff, just a little racier than a bodice ripper) should be made illegal both on the internet and in print.
And then there are other topics - should positively eroticized rape fiction be illegal? Or censored? They've successfully prosecuted a producer fictionalized rape/snuff films (they had to go through some hoops to do it) but those laws all apply to depictions, not the written word. (Not sure precisely where I stand on this one, either.)
Anyone ever had anything censored? Where are your personal "lines"?
I just think it's an interesting question.
I'll close with a quote by one of my favorite authors, Neil Gaimon: "If you accept -- and I do -- that freedom of speech is important, then you are going to have to defend the indefensible. That means you are going to be defending the right of people to read, or to write, or to say, what you don't say or like or want said."
J.
But Jesus. Face facts, people. Young people have sex. Legality varies. So does morality.
