High Kings

MumblingSage · Mar 5, 2009

High Kings appear in the three big authors of my fantasy-reading experiance: Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Lloyd Alexander. They're also popping off the shelves at my local library, to judge from the titles I'm seeing. But what on earth are they?

Well, research (typing 'high king' into google and then clicking a wikipedia page) reveals that it pretty much means one big king with a lot of smaller kings under him. Ireland and Scotland had them, as apprantly did Sumeria.

Being the strange individual I am, I had to ask, "Well, what about all the lesser (low?) kings under this one? Don't THEY ever do anything interesting?"

Anyway, I just thought I'd start a thread for anybody else who's noticed this...should I call it a trend?...to offer their thoughts. Is the plethora of High Kings part of what Diana Wayne Jones called the "Pan-Celtic Tour" in her Tough Guide to Fantasyland? Or does it just sound cool?

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 5, 2009

I've read tons of books with High Kings. Unfortunately, I've never gotten the chance to read TGTF, so I can't expound on that question directly. I can say that I find the abundance of generic medieval High Kings with no obvious Celtic roots worrisome. Why does no one do their research?

geardrops · Mar 5, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Why does no one do their research?

But that's the joy of fantasy. It doesn't have to be based in reality.

At all.

Ever.

SPMiller · Mar 5, 2009

Agreed. Fantasy != reality.

Also, High Kings in work by Linden/Erikson.

maxmordon · Mar 5, 2009

My WIP idea has a High King and several Shoguns under him... he also has a Grand Vizier, a High Priest and a Supreme Commander in the same government structure so you can't tell me it doesn't have a fair share of mixed cultures.

mscelina · Mar 5, 2009

Look at the Iliad.

Agamemnon was the High King, simply because he had the most power and was the wealthiest. All of the other Greek leaders were kings in their own rights, but subject to Agamemnon's authority because...well, he had the biggest army. Even then, however, it's not Agamemnon's authority that brings the Greeks together for the Trojan War--it was an agreement between all of the suitors of Helen that Odysseus, a lesser king, convinced the others to swear--that if anyone stole Helen from the suitor she ultimately picked, the other kings would band together to get her back. So yes, a lesser king can do a lot.

Smiling Ted · Mar 5, 2009

mscelina said:
So yes, a lesser king can do a lot.

And they don't have to walk around on those ridiculous six-foot tall stilts like the higher kings.

maxmordon · Mar 5, 2009

There's also a matter of translation. I remember in my Latin class we had to translate part of The Iliad and there was this term... Capitellum... which would mean Warlord, Leader, Chieftain, etc. and is the root of the Spanish Caudillo depending on how you would like it... so is something subjective, I think.

maxmordon · Mar 5, 2009

Smiling Ted said:
And they don't have to walk around on those ridiculous six-foot tall stilts like the higher kings.

Don't forget the Dwarven king from Discworld... the Low King.

Straka · Mar 5, 2009

If you look back into early medieval history, sometimes kings controlled only a single town, not even a 'kingdom.' You could identify them as they were the only ones who had armor.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 5, 2009

maxmordon said:
My WIP idea has a High King and several Shoguns under him... he also has a Grand Vizier, a High Priest and a Supreme Commander in the same government structure so you can't tell me it doesn't have a fair share of mixed cultures.

Several Shoguns? That must be one hell of a piece of territory.

Smiling Ted · Mar 5, 2009

"I'm king of this field over here, see? And me mate Fergus, he's king from the oak tree over there down to the big black rock by Maggie's barn. And that rat-%$#^@ Colm, he's king from stream to the bare patch next to McWiggin's mill, and he thinks he's so great on account of he's got a mushroom patch in HIS kingdom. Thinks his hayfield's bigger than anyone else's. Well, we'll show him. And then I'LL be High King of the whole lot of yer."

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 5, 2009

If I start 8 micro-nations(micro-monarchies), can I call myself a High King? :welcome:

MumblingSage · Mar 6, 2009

Straka said:
If you look back into early medieval history, sometimes kings controlled only a single town, not even a 'kingdom.' You could identify them as they were the only ones who had armor.

This is pretty much the idea behind (one) of my WIPs. It also has a high king in it who is trying to rule more than just, say, a single town.

Lhun · Mar 6, 2009

MumblingSage said:
High Kings appear in the three big authors of my fantasy-reading experiance: Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, and Lloyd Alexander. They're also popping off the shelves at my local library, to judge from the titles I'm seeing. But what on earth are they?

Germany had a similar tradition for most of medieval history. The german king was elected by the Markgrafen for life. (Markgraf as a title indicating a noble that takes part in this election) The german king as well as other high kings is a significantly different position than that of absolutistic rulers (the french kings for example). They were usually elected from among the nobility by the nobility and had pretty much the job to take care of any communal problems and external affairs that don't fall within jurisdiction of the lower nobles themselves. They didn't get a standing army (had to bring their own

) or the power to make laws or pretty much any of the powers of an absolutistic king. They were more of a figurehead for external affairs, their internal powers were severly limited as the lower nobles (Kings or Markgrafen) still reigned supreme withing their own territory. Heck, there are cases where even when there was an external thread and the king called on his nobles to assemble an army some (or all) of them just ignored him.
There was also pretty much a constant struggles between kings who wanted to gain influence for their office, and all other nobles who wanted to remain independent.

maxmordon · Mar 6, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
Several Shoguns? That must be one hell of a piece of territory.

Continental Empire...

Vomaxx · Mar 6, 2009

The Holy Roman Emperor was chosen by the (eventually nine) Electors (Kurfursten); his power varied with time, but before the elections became hereditary in the Hapsburg family they were quite exciting (diplomatically speaking). Candidates did not have to be German: Henry VIII had hopes of being chosen at one point. Getting elected required lots of money for bribing the Electors: Charles V went permanently into debt to the Fuggers, the great banking family that financed his election. A situation like this would provide abundant material for a fantasy world, as main topic or background.

Lhun · Mar 6, 2009

Vomaxx said:
The Holy Roman Emperor<snip>

It always kinda amuses me when i see this. I have to think of that comment i hear from time to time how the holy roman empire was neither holy nor roman nor an empire. And while technically correct it is mostly an error introduced by the translation into english.
[/geekmode]

A situation like this would provide abundant material for a fantasy world, as main topic or background.

That is very true. And i add that with some research into medieval history one can sketch a convincing and realistic liege society which will look a lot more alien and strange to todays readers than pretty much any dark-elf society i have ever seen an author create. The whole mindsets were different for medieval people, and a lot of what was just common practice is really hard to get your head around from todays point of view. Stuff like the fact that (common) peope had to get permission to move from their birthplace is totally unimaginable today. Or how guilds used to regulate who is allowed to set up a business in a town.

knight_tour · Mar 6, 2009

Although he is not a king, I have chosen one of the major characters of my novel to be a minor lord. This way I get to have him interact with the higher nobles and the king, but he gets to bring glory to the underdog (relatively).

MumblingSage · Mar 6, 2009

Liosse de Velishaf said:
If I start 8 micro-nations(micro-monarchies), can I call myself a High King?

If you give me one of those micronations to rule, I'll gladly call you my High King, my leige! (Your screenname just SOUNDS noble)

Smiling Ted · Mar 6, 2009

Lhun said:
That is very true. And i add that with some research into medieval history one can sketch a convincing and realistic liege society which will look a lot more alien and strange to todays readers than pretty much any dark-elf society i have ever seen an author create. The whole mindsets were different for medieval people, and a lot of what was just common practice is really hard to get your head around from todays point of view. Stuff like the fact that (common) peope had to get permission to move from their birthplace is totally unimaginable today. Or how guilds used to regulate who is allowed to set up a business in a town.

Ditto on that.
The Enlightenment was an amazing historical moment.

Liosse de Velishaf · Mar 6, 2009

MumblingSage said:
If you give me one of those micronations to rule, I'll gladly call you my High King, my leige! (Your screenname just SOUNDS noble)

It is; the namesake is a (son of a) fictional marquis (More properly, he's probably a margrave). Which doesn't quite entitle me to claim "High King"--though I might get away with being a nomral king--but... whatever.

heretic_scribe · Mar 12, 2009

dempsey said:
But that's the joy of fantasy. It doesn't have to be based in reality.

At all.

Ever.

I'd argue that this is also the genre's biggest potential weakness. It invites lazy writing from undisciplined writers who think the word "fantasy" allows them to write whatever they want, whether it makes sense or not.

MumblingSage · Mar 13, 2009

I think there's a middle way between rewriting history and being, well, insane.

Mind, insane works. H.P. Lovecraft didn't write fantasy based in history, but his Dreamworld stories are still wonderful (and deserve to be classics).

On the other hand, retold history runs the risk of being dry, or--horror of horrors--unimaginative.

High Kings can probably be used without bringing Ireland or Assyria or even the Holy Roman Empire into the story. At least, I hope so, because I'm trying to write one into a Missisippian-style culture.

High Kings

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