Favourite Voice?

Shweta · Feb 28, 2009

One of the things I love about being outside the cool kids' swimming pool is that nobody is telling me to write in tight third

Not that I dislike tight third; sometimes it's perfect. But I tend to get stories complete with voice, and that's the voice(s) for the story, and that's what I got.

And I happen to absolutely adore storyteller voices, written prose that draws from oral traditions. Of course that's much easier to do badly than well, but I have reason to think I'm not bad at it...

But I also really like that thing Kelly Link does with voice, the very modern narrator who still has a distinctive voice and can use it to play with your head. And a couple of my favourite stories have been second person narratives...

So yeah, what do you guys like reading, like writing, hate with a passion...?

Vincent · Feb 28, 2009

For me it's nearly always story idea first, voice decided on second. But it's becoming clearer to me that without a distinct and narrative-relevant voice thought out (I'm talking POV and tense and the overpowering personality of the character bubbling forth too, here), the story just ends up... lacking something important. Something that brings the other elements together and ultimately makes the cool story idea worth the effort.

I'll leave it to a better writer than me to tell me what that something is.

Now, recently (using the word lightly there), I'm finding myself employing first person more often. I suspect it's my way compensating for a flaw I know I have, difficulty building layered and believable characters who exist as more than plot-pushers. I'm trying to get past that, I really am. Maybe first person forces me to not rush through these characters, to sit back and give them some thought.

Er, where was I? Oh. I've played with first person paste tense, first person present, third past, third present omni, third present close, mixes of these within the same story, and I couldn't tell you if I do any better in any one of these.

Dawnstorm · Feb 28, 2009

I love story tellers, too. Luckily, they're still popular in short fiction. Gardner Dozois's Best of SF from last year has a couple.

One of my recent reads, where the narrator made the book: A Song for Nero, Thomas (Tom) Holt. It's less an alternate history as a comment on writing history - subverting the "winner writes the history" perspective with a frog's eye view, which in the end isn't all that credible either... You're being told a story by a crook, and you're surprised he's not a reliable narrator? Hah! (The ending is vicious, as the review says. But it worked for me.)

Shweta · Feb 28, 2009

beezle said:
For me it's nearly always story idea first, voice decided on second. But it's becoming clearer to me that without a distinct and narrative-relevant voice thought out (I'm talking POV and tense and the overpowering personality of the character bubbling forth too, here), the story just ends up... lacking something important. Something that brings the other elements together and ultimately makes the cool story idea worth the effort.

To be extremely non-technical, maybe traction? Something that gives the reader a way into the cool idea?

You do write characters with strong and compelling and fun voices, when you let the voice happen, and I've seen that in your 3rd person narratives as well as 1st person, especially lately. I sort of wonder what would happen if you let yourself ... play(?) more.

Dawnstorm said:
I love story tellers, too. Luckily, they're still popular in short fiction. Gardner Dozois's Best of SF from last year has a couple.

Heh, and I shouldn't whine, I've sold a couple. I just seem not to be able to place some of my strongest recent pieces...

One of my recent reads, where the narrator made the book: A Song for Nero, Thomas (Tom) Holt. It's less an alternate history as a comment on writing history - subverting the "winner writes the history" perspective with a frog's eye view, which in the end isn't all that credible either... You're being told a story by a crook, and you're surprised he's not a reliable narrator? Hah! (The ending is vicious, as the review says. But it worked for me.)

Now I don't know if I really want to read it, or am scared of it. Vicious endings scar me.
On the other hand, scars are interesting

Gray Rose · Feb 28, 2009

Shweta said:
But I tend to get stories complete with voice, and that's the voice(s) for the story, and that's what I got.

I'm almost like that. I get the feel of the character(s) first, often with voice, and if not, I need to find it before I start writing. If i do not have the voice I cannot write. I am sitting on some good plots now waiting for the voice to emerge.

I just seem not to be able to place some of my strongest recent pieces..

The keyword is recent. Patience!

i am positive they will sell.

I love 2nd person, but having received two rejections with "too distant" for my 2nd person piece which is really *not* too distant at all, I'm not writing anymore in 2nd for the time being.

Vincent · Feb 28, 2009

Shweta said:
You do write characters with strong and compelling and fun voices, when you let the voice happen, and I've seen that in your 3rd person narratives as well as 1st person, especially lately. I sort of wonder what would happen if you let yourself ... play(?) more.

Yes, I probably should. What I do sometimes do is experiment, with a tense, a perspective, a character, whatever. The two stories I've actually managed to sell (they're in my sig) were in whole or in part brought about by these experiments. OE has alternating segments told in either a story-tellerish third person, or a seperate (unreliable and heavily character flavoured) first person.

That was my experiment with character voice. AT was my experiment with perspective. It appears to be the close in third person perspective of Character A (in present tense, if it wasn't confusing enough already) observing and talking with Character B, but turns out to be Character B projecting fantasied thoughts and conversation onto a non-character. He's both A and B.

And that was interesting to write. But I had to justify it to myself before I started, as I do with my "experiments". Perhaps I do need to "play" around a bit more. I might get the hang of this storytelling gig sooner. I just gave myself a headache trying to explain what I did with two little stories and it still wasn't a coherant effort.

Perhaps I'll also write something to justify my continued presence on this new forum. Neither of the above-mentioned stories are particularly intersti...ti...it..ual...

So, who here has mastered second person?

Shweta · Feb 28, 2009

Oh, I've mastered second person, just not for narrative :tongue

Also, I'm failing at sleep again... *sigh*

Vincent · Feb 28, 2009

Shweta said:
Also, I'm failing at sleep again... *sigh*

Mhmm, I gathered. Me, I'm having way too much fun with my new notebook to sleep.

Now, I was just thinking, the times I've consistently let myself just play with my writing were during the weekly scifi/fantasy forum's Flash Fiction Challenge. 90 minutes a week, who cares if it works or not? It's fun and cool stuff can happen.

Any chance of an intersticy challenge? Say... first week's prompt ''a 2nd person present tense scene in which time runs backwards" or some such?

Gray Rose · Feb 28, 2009

beezle said:
Any chance of an intersticy challenge? Say... first week's prompt ''a 2nd person present tense scene in which time runs backwards" or some such?

Ohhh, I'd love that!! We actually also have an SYW if someone is inclined to post their stuff.

Liosse de Velishaf · Feb 28, 2009

I'm not exactly a fan of experimental for the sake of experimental. My voices tend to be first or tight third limited. This allows me to play with unreliable narrators, but also to tell stories in my favorite manner. I don't like second much. I write much longer stuff, and so second is usually too conny to make the effort.

Dawnstorm · Feb 28, 2009

Shweta said:
Now I don't know if I really want to read it, or am scared of it. Vicious endings scar me.
On the other hand, scars are interesting

The ending came a shock to me, to say the least. The content's nasty, but the tone remains as conversational as always. It's an about face. I've read worse endings content-wise, but they don't usually catch you that cold. It's like realising too late that the nice man with the boyish charm has sold you a vaccuum cleaner, but you can't really fault him, because he never pretended not to sell a vaccuum cleaner. Now substitute "sell a vaccuum cleaner" for a rather gruesome ending. It's my theory that the ending is responsible for the unusual "Thomas" on the cover. The ending doesn't gel with "Tom Holt", anymore.

Liosse de Velishaf said:
I'm not exactly a fan of experimental for the sake of experimental.

Nor am I. But playing around with language in the small before you're writing your own stories is a much better way to learn what works for you and what doesn't than to internalise someone else's writing rules.

Ruv Draba · Mar 1, 2009

A friend was writing a short about a grandfather who made a sacrifice for his grandson. She tried it tight third, first person on grandpa, a folksy first-person observer, omniscient and nothing gave her the combination of character and mood she wanted.

Then, on the eighth or so attempt, she settled on first person on the grandson, told from far in the future. It gave her exactly what she wanted.

The lesson I learned is that PoV isn't arbitrary. It decides who gets sympathy, who gets empathy, how characters look and what mood you get. I think that it's worth playing with PoV until you have exactly the experience you want to present. Especially, I'm starting to pay attention to characters that are stronger than my main character, supporting through-lines that are more interesting than my MC's through-line. It can quite change your perspective on a story idea.

Shweta · Mar 1, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
The lesson I learned is that PoV isn't arbitrary. It decides who gets sympathy, who gets empathy, how characters look and what mood you get.

Yeah. And also what information the reader gets when, and how it's understood to relate.

I've never settled on a voice arbitrarily, nor have I read anything I liked in which the voice could have really changed.

Keyan · Mar 1, 2009

My natural writing voice is 3rd, omni, and I'm working on doing more close third because my stories feel distant compared with close third and first person. I've written a couple in second person, but switched them to third later.

I like reading 3rd omni, too. But I also love close third and some first-person. It depends a great deal on the story, for me. Where the story is the main point, then any POV is fine as long as it gets the job done.

If it's written in first person, I tend to almost subconsciously conflate author and narrator unless the differences are clarified very early in the story.

Sharon Mock · Mar 2, 2009

When it comes to reading, I'm pretty much POV-agnostic. But I strongly prefer storytelling voices, omniscient, voices strongly inflected by their point of view.

When writing short stories, I suppose I tend to be fairly conservative. I've done first and third, occasionally both in the same story (though that one has not yet found a home). Usually past tense, sometimes present; I do have one story that shifts from past to present partway through. It really depends on how I hear the story in my head.

And then there's novels. Which I feel compelled to write in standard genre voice: rotating limited third, inflected by the voice of the viewpoint character. And since none of my characters tend to be as "voicey" as my own default narrative, it can flatten everything out terribly. I've been trying to get around that with the current project, trying to get more of my default voice in, with decidedly mixed results. But it's a rough draft, it doesn't have to be perfect, right?

Shweta · Mar 2, 2009

Sharon Mock said:
I've been trying to get around that with the current project, trying to get more of my default voice in, with decidedly mixed results. But it's a rough draft, it doesn't have to be perfect, right?

If it is, I will ... shake my fist at you.

Shadow Dragon · Mar 9, 2009

I switch back and forth from tight third person where the narrating voice takes the personality and thoughts of the character's pov, to omnipoten third voice and sometimes I just go to first voice to convey the pov's character's thoughts.

Gray Rose · Mar 9, 2009

I started out writing in 1st. I then did a fair amount in close 3rd. The current 2 stories - one is in 1st and the other in 3rd.

I think that when I feel really dismal about my writing I work in 1st person. It helps me get past writers' block.

AMCrenshaw · Mar 10, 2009

Proleptic 1st person present tense storyteller working analeptically.

AMC

Favourite Voice?

Shweta

gone

Vincent

Cheers

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

Shweta

gone

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!

Vincent

Cheers

Shweta

gone

Vincent

Cheers

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!

Liosse de Velishaf

Dawnstorm

punny user title, here

Ruv Draba

Shweta

gone

Keyan

ubiquitous

Sharon Mock

Wing nut

Shweta

gone

Shadow Dragon

Gray Rose

Beware of the Thorns!

AMCrenshaw

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