Script Analysis

Well, check out those script consultants. Some of them are scam artists who don't have the background.

There are experienced and credited screenwriters on this site who do script analysis. I think one of them would be better, as we know their background and we know that they are trustworthy people.

I don't want to sound like I'm endorsing one or the other, so I won't mention any names directly.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/screenwriting/interviews.htm

A bunch of those people interviewed by Jenna do script consulting. As do some people here who are on this forum (up to you guys to tell this person what you do). So just talk to them about what they offer and decide which ones is the best fit for you.

nganok said:

OK- I've written my first two scripts- had them editted by a writer friend of mine and now I'd like to get script analysis from one of those fancy smanchy cover guys in the back of my latest Creative Screenwritier Issue. Is this good next move or not? ? ?

Click to expand...

Ngan -

It can be a great move or a waste of money depending upon how good the analyst is. Not every writer makes a good analyst - not every analyst is good. Some analysts critique based on personal taste as opposed to offering an objective critique.

Coverage and an in-depth analysis are two different things. Coverage is the internal evaluation that agencies and production companies use. It's normally 2 or 3 pages equally divided between a plot synopsis and an overview of the strengths and weaknesses of the script and a final recommendation. Coverage is often accompanied by a grid sheet that grades particular elements (i.e. dialgue, set-up, characterization, etc.) Scripts whose coverage get a recommend are passed up the ladder - scripts whose coverage gets a pass are rejected.

Coverage services replicate these internal reports. A recommend on coverage from a coverage service means nothing to anyone but you (except in those rare instances where these services also act as liasons to agents for the scripts that get a recommend) Coverage can give you that outside perspective that your script doesn't totally suck - which is nice to know (although it's only one person's opinion and one reader's recommend is another reader's pass) - but it's not going to provide you with the type of information that will help you make it better. Coverage is more about pointing out what works or doesn't work as opposed to analyzing what works or doesn't work. A page or so of evaluation and an excellent - to - poor rating on the script elements is more about finding out where you are then getting you where you need to be.

Script analysis is a more in-depth evaluation. Evaluations are detailed reports (anywhere between 6 and 20 pages) that breakdown scripts into different areas and point out exactly what the problems are - the best analysts also provide ideas on how to fix those problems. Many analysts also provide development notes on the script itself - just as you would get from a development executive or producer during the professional rewrite process. Some analysts will offer one-on-one consulting time to go over your notes and then will read your revised draft based on the notes. Some will act as writing coaches and help you through the rewriting process. Some will act as a liason to agents, managers, etc.

A good analyst can make a huge difference. I've seen scripts go from really weak to sellable in one or two drafts. But a lot of that has to do with the talent of the writer in question, the fact that the writer had the ability to absorb the criticim and execute.

The cost for analysts vary - some like Linda Seger charge thousands of dollars - others charge a couple hundred. I used to charge around $750 (more if I did page notes) - I never had one client who didn't think it was worth the money.

I honestly didn't want to mention names, but on the off chance someone reads Iwrite's Post and thinks that he or she must spend thousands of dollars to get their script analyzed, Noooooo!

Joe Calabrese, the forum moderator, does script analysis for $200.

Jim Vines, who was interviewed by Jenna, charges somewhere between $.75 and $1.00 per page, depending on the level of service you order from him.

Jon Dorf, playright/screenwriter, charges $2 per page

There are others, all of whom were interviewed by Jenna, who charge reasonable rates.

People like Linda Seger are used by STUDIOS.

I don't think anyone who has a writer's best interest at heart would charge or recommend a beginning writer spend thousands, or even close to $1000 on script coverage. If someone suggests you put out that kind of money, RUN. Only studio productions have any business shelling out that kind of money.

I apologize, Joe and Jenna, if I've violated some forum rules (I didn't feel comfortable posting prices here). But a newcomer could think he or she has to spent $750 to thousands from Iwrite's post, and that isn't true.

Just because someone has the biggest name around as a script consultant doesn't mean that their coverage will be better than other qualified people, including other professional screenwriters.

I personally got some excellent coverage for free. Now I am using a script consultant (paid) for an assestment. But still, I don't see how Iwrite can seriously suggest that a novice screenwriter should spend that much money on a "script consultant" particularly when said writer has only written a couple of specs.

If you really have thousands to blow, you might benefit from entering screenwriting programs at universities like UCLA or NYU. At the end of the program they'll give you one evaluation for free, and obviously as a part of the course you write screenplays which are graded.

Justin.
I think you're overreacting a little. I don't think Iwrite said you SHOULD pay thousands of dollars. In fact Iwrite said"

"... some like Linda Seger charge thousands of dollars - others charge a couple hundred."

I, as like many of those who provide coverage for a fee, charge around that few hundred.

Will you get the same notes from me as opposed to Linda for hundreds less? Maybe, maybe not. But I agree that not every analyst is good at what they do. Ask them what results writers have received from using thier coverage ask them for a sample.

My biggest recommendation to anyone looking for coverage (besides spending money on me of course), would be to have as many people read it, both writers and laymen alike. Join a writer's group, zoetrope, triggerstreet. Have as many eyes look at it and then take the advice and comments and put them in a pile. Look for common threads. If one person said "I hate how your character drinks light beer," then it's personal taste, BUT if 90% of your readers say the same thing... Well, it's a flaw that should be addressed. writer's groups are a valuable service.

If and when you want to pay for coverage, do so because you have exhausted all other avenues and still feel the script lacks.

JustinoXXV said:

I honestly didn't want to mention names, but on the off chance someone reads Iwrite's Post and thinks that he or she must spend thousands of dollars to get their script analyzed, Noooooo!

Click to expand...

Justino - I never said you had to spend thousands - as Joe pointed out I gave the range. I'm not going to judge the quality of anyone's analysis that I haven't seen - but I think in a case of someone like Linda Seger - you get what you pay for (I've seen hers - I know her). You are correct that she works for the studios - but she does in fact offer her services to "regular Joes" - and a regular Joe that chose to go to her could probably save themselves a minimum of three drafts and add texture and character shading that they would never come up with on their own.

JustinoXXV said:

I don't think anyone who has a writer's best interest at heart would charge or recommend a beginning writer spend thousands, or even close to $1000 on script coverage. If someone suggests you put out that kind of money, RUN. Only studio productions have any business shelling out that kind of money.

Click to expand...

No offense Justino - but this is big bunch of poo. Every consultant that I know - and I know quite a few who charge quite a lot - is passionate about helping writers. They also believe that what they do has value and they charge what the feel it's worth.

Some hairstylists charge $20 / cut, others charge $200. The Jose Eber's are not ripping people off - they just believe that their talent and knowledge is worth that much and those who choose to spend it can spend it. And while the amount one charges does not necessarily reflect their ability - I'd bet my bottom dollar that Jose Eber gives a better cut than any hair stylists that works at Supercuts.

When I did consult I'd spend about 10 hours total on each script - $75 an hour for the service I was providing was reasonable. $20/ hour (which is what it would be if I was charging a couple hundred - was not reasonable in my eyes. I could get paid $20 / hour for TYPING someone else's screenplay - story consulting - script development requires more of me and from me than typing and as such deserves considerably more compensation. I wasn't just analyzing - I was teaching and guiding as well.

It's a free market - there are hundreds of options out there and all different price ranges. For me, part of the beauty was that those who were willing to put that type of money I charged toward consulting services - were not hobbyists (which does not necessarily mean they were all good or talented) they were dedicated to pursuing a writing career, which means they were willing to do the hard work and take the tough criticism - they wanted to learn and improve. They came to me because they KNEW they weren't where they needed to be and wanted to get there. It made my job easier and more gratifying.

And just for clarification - Justion. I was not, repeat was NOT talking about coverage. I am talking about analysis and consulting. Personally, I think any coverage is a waste of money, because it points out what's bad, but doesn't tell you what's bad about it. And I agree with you that a class at NYU or UCLA is the best investment of your screewriting dollars.

But consultants are not necessarily just for the newbies. I still consult ocassionally and my clients are working writers - repped, produced, on assignment - and incidentally I charge them considerably more than 75/hour.

I agree that a writer should wait until they really understand the craft before investing in a consultant - and I'm certainly not suggesting that everyone should go to a consultant or needs one - but many of those who charge at the high end may well be worth the money.

There are

several simple tests you can put your script through in order to discover where you are in your writing.

1) Post a logline.

This will reveal a great deal about your skills and the concept of your story. Some problems may be readily apparent.

2) Post a few pages in the pages forum here or at DoneDeal. There is a pretty good chance you'll get some interesting insights and some helpful advice. If there is an issue, we'll find it.

3)Try triggerstreet or zoetrope. Lots of novices, some real trolls, but usually there is something to be learned. Once in a while a pro will respond.

Like Joe said, if one or two people mention something it's probably just personal taste but if you get three or four similar comments then you should seriously consider the validity of the comment.

If you get favorable responses and after you've fixed what ever issues might have been identified then do a little research and find someone you like and trust. Joe has given solid advice on the boards so I believe he would be a safe bet.

Bill Martell who runs scriptsecrets will give you excellent feedback though he has said his fee is high to ward off people who are not serious. (I think it may be 400 or 500 dollars. He would be worth every penny.)

There is a topic at DoneDeal about script services and quite a few recommends.

Iwrite, I apologize if I overreacted. While I've never been scammed, I certainly have come across them so forgive me if I'm a little sensitive to these things sometimes.

And yes, I understand that consultants are not necessarily just for beginners.

"2) Post a few pages in the pages forum here or at DoneDeal. There is a pretty good chance you'll get some interesting insights and some helpful advice. If there is an issue, we'll find it.

3)Try triggerstreet or zoetrope. Lots of novices, some real trolls, but usually there is something to be learned. Once in a while a pro will respond."

I'd say a screenwriter should chose very carefully who he or she lets read his work. I joined a writer's group once. Three of the writers royally trashed each other and had a huge fight. That was the end of the group, and I will never attend another writer's group again.

Also, people may decide that they totally hate a script or a movie because it has some elements that they don't like. A person who hates gays isn't going to like a gay themed screenplay no matter how well it is written. A person who hates witches isn't going to like a fantasy with witches.

That's where the value of a good script consultant can come in, ideally they'll be objective and tell you what things work and don't work in your script structurally. They may even steer you towards markets that your work fits.

I recently got an indepth analysis from a producer who liked the potential of my script, but hated it's structural and dialog flaws.

Even if a person who isn't familiar with screenwriting totally loves your work, they won't be able to tell how to make it better. And that's what you really need. Along those lines, I'd definitely say avoid Triggerstreet. I'd even question asking a group of people on this forum for that kind of help, as you'll often get conflictling advice. Find someone that you trust and whose background you know. If you can work with that person, contact them privately if they are able and willing to work with you as a script consultant (for those who are qualified).

I would also recommend avoiding Triggerstreet. Some of the worst screenplays I've ever read in my life are some of their 'site favorites.' It's basically peer feedback from people with very little knowledge or experience. And because most reviewers are trying to work their way up through the rankings, it's hard to get any kind of objective feedback from them (You're their competition.) I applaud what they are trying to do there, but you'd be spinning your wheels taking much of their feedback with more than a grain of salt.

Why pay

when you can get some decent advice for free?

(and I even run my own editing and feedback service.)
The same people you trust with your questions on the boards are the same ones that will read your pages and give you feedback. There are several people here who are very willing to read five or six pages and can, will, and have given wonderful advice.

The pages forums are always busy and most of the time things go pretty well.

You may get some goofy comments and some people (like me) will comment on anything and everything that bugs them BUT I can guarantee you that if the regulars (like me, Dpaterso, Joe, Iwrite, Maestro, etc) are around then you'll get great feedback.
(sorry if I left anyone out.)
If you don't believe me then check out the pages boards and see what other writers have received.

Sometimes another writer might not be as skilled a story teller or word smith but they could have other talents and insights that you will find useful.

I remember a new writer here who's script included a scene with an airplane that had just landed. The writer obviously didn't understand or think about the logistics and realties of aircraft and the scene simply would not work the way it was written.

I worked at the airport for a year and was able to give him very specific info and facts that improved the scene.

Now I will be quite blunt. REAL writers will know if the advice and feedback is sound or not.
SERIOUS writers will have done some personal study, grasped the basics, and be able to compare the advice to what they all ready know to be correct.
And they will ditch the junk.

Anybody who can't sort it out should move on. Time and again it has been proved that the fools, the unskilled, and the lazy are the ones that resent feedback.



Nganok, spend an hour or two reading posted pages and the feedback given. You may become aware of your scripts problems just by doing that.
Sometimes you can see the problem in another's script but not in your own because you are too close to your writing.
Then you read YOUR OWN pages and go "Crap, I did the exact same thing."
You will at least inform yourself and then be able to decide with intelligence whether posting pages is for you.

Do it, do it, do it.
I prooooooomise it won't hurt................



...............................................................................much.

script consultants

Creative Screenwriting did an extensive consumer reports article on 25 different consultants. If you called them for that back issue then you'll see what i'm talking about. They took one script to each consultant and posted the reviews and what the writers got out of the process. They also did a cost analysis.

Check it out!

scripter1 said:

when you can get some decent advice for free?

BUT I can guarantee you that if the regulars (like me, Dpaterso, Joe, Iwrite, Maestro, etc) are around then you'll get great feedback.
(sorry if I left anyone out.)
If you don't believe me then check out the pages boards and see what other writers have received.

Click to expand...

Scripter you are comparing a crumb to a 5-course meal. Yes I'll take 15 or 20 minutes to read 10 or so pages and give feedback on those pages - for me it's a pay it forward kind of thing. But I'm not gonna take 5 or 6 hours to read an entire script on these boards and give a detailed evaluation - I'm not that generous.

Real analysis is micro and macro - it takes the entire flow of the script into account, the entire character arc. It puts every element under a microscope and then takes a step back and evaluates the entire script as a whole. It is a multi-level evaluation.

Again, I'm not suggesting that people spend money on a good consultant and I am not dissing the feedback you can get on boards like this (if you are lucky enough to get feedback from a Joe or DPat) - but don't think for one minute that feedback on a couple pages is the same thing as a real Professional, high quality analysis of a script.

Only a few pages

of a script can and often do reveal major problems for a novice writer.

There is no point in paying money to read the whole script when it might be fatally flawed from the get go.


Writers will repeat the same mistakes over and over again.
If they can be shown in their first five pages how, where, and why they are losing the reader they then can go on and fix the entire script, saving themselves 45 to 100 bucks.


MAYBE THEN a good consultant can be called in for the detail work.


Sure a very well written script's flaws may not be apparent until one reads the whole thing, gets the entire picture but HONESTLY man, I mean REALLY HONESTLY in your experience

how many novice writers can make it through the first 5 to 10 pages with out making SOME kind of basic mistake or having elements that could be improved?


Why pay a highly skilled person to find those things when a message board member is perfectly happy to do it for free? And capable.

Nganok may be a very talented writer and able to write a great script.
Then again he may only just be okay and could use some nudges forward.


If we on the boards can tell a new writer "You're blocks of description are too bulky, I just can't accept this one character's actions, the dialog is on the nose, you left one of your major characters doing nothing during this scene, and you'll NEVER be able to get that horse to walk across the rope bridge," then we may have given this writer enough tools to carry on and get that script in tiptop shape.


Sometimes all people need is to have their minds opened to script issues and then they can go on and apply general advice to the entire script.
It's like washing your face in the morning and getting the goop out.
Your eyes get opened.


Most new writers have so many basic story and script problems that they aren't ready for big time script consultants.
Problem is, THEY don't know they aren't ready.

It's like attending grad school when you're still in ninth grade.



Iwrite, how many people do you know that eat five course meals?
Most of us are pretty darn happy with a couple slices of pizza or a burger, a lasagna here and there, and pot roast with potatoes and carrots on Sunday.
Maybe some ice cream for dessert.


Sure we want more then crumbs but we don't NEED a formal dinner.






OH, and when you post pages PLEASE keep them to five or six pages.
And don't post the whole script in five page sections either.

I think that most writers are so close to their work, or write with such a fevered determination, that they can never be totally objective and see the errors they make, or the weakness they know exist, but still make those mistakes anyway.

That is why it is important to get unbiased opinions whenever and wherever they can, whether it be free or for pay.

If I was rich, I would give Mamet whatever he wanted to read everything I have-- twice.

But alas, I am but a poor man and can afford very little. So I get dozens of people (both writers and non) to read my work for free and weed through the crap and bonehead advice and single out the rare pearls of wisdom that come in until I have an idea of were the weaknesses and errors are. Then I hope that the fix is better than the original.

Sure a novice or layman can't give advice on structure, three act, beats, characterization or formatting, but they may have some comments that will give you a wake up call and see an error or weakness. I let my hairdresser read one of my scripts and sure she had no idea what she was talking about. But she said one thing that made me think. She said that it was hard to understand because two lead characters had almost the same sounding name. She also said I had a lot of characters that made it confusing. She never knew who was in the scene. I agreed and changed it.

I belong to a regular writer's group with 8 to 10 members who meet each month at someone's house. After two years, I can call these people my peers and my friends. Everyone there is about at my writing level, with few below and some above. We read each others work (1 to 2 submissions a month) and for 2 hours we cut the crap out of it. This by far is the best tools at our disposal. Join a writer's group or start one in your area. If you are an hour drive from a big city, chances are you will find people to join who are worth their weight in gold.

Of course people have likes and dislikes and that will reveal in the feedback. Of course no one person is an expert, but may still offer advice that is worthwhile.

Even an expert may not give you everything but they are focused more and more knowledgeable it the craft. If you decide to go the pay for advice way, think about using me (just kidding). Use someone who has something to offer and can show you samples of their reviews. Pay what you can afford and don't put off a mortgage payment so you can get a review of your work.

consultants

Joe Calabrese said:

I think that most writers are so close to their work, or write with such a fevered determination, that they can never be totally objective and see the errors they make, or the weakness they know exist, but still make those mistakes anyway.

Click to expand...

Hit the nail right on the head there Joe.

Also novice writers can often sense that something is wrong but have no idea what, or why, or how to go about fixing it. They've read all the books, articles and tips but understanding the concept is one thing, being able to apply it is another.

Scripter -

Not every person who is looking for feedback on this board is a novice. There are people at all different levels of the craft - from those who don't understand the basics to people like Joe who've had options, sales and writer for hire gigs. And every single one of them wants feedback to make their work better.

You act like the basics i.e. strong dialogue, descriptions, etc. is all that you need to judge in order to tell the quality of a script. Not by a longshot. That's only the tip of the iceberg. That's what separates the Good from the Bad from the Ugly. But those who are good (i.e. not passed on by page 5) are judged at a much higher standard on the big picture elements - story, pace, character development, outer conflict, inner conflict, overall style, tone, storytelling etc. You cannot give a writer helpful feedback in these areas if you've only read a handful of pages. You need to read from page one to page 120 - to give a helpful analysis on the whole script.

And the quality of a scene or two does not necessarily represent the quality of the whole script. Sometimes writers get stuck on a scene so they execute poorly - doesn't mean the whole script is as bad. I've read full scripts that had a couple of brilliant, shining - perfect scenes - plonked down in the middle of a 110 page pile of poo. I've seen scenes that make me groan and grimace - in the middle of an otherwise fabulous project. I've seen stellar dialogue in a lousy story and lousy dialogue in a stellar story and a great concept with a weak second act.

scripter1 said:

Iwrite, how many people do you know that eat five course meals?.

Click to expand...

All the (in your words) REAL, SERIOUS writers I know want to know how to get their script good enough to sell. Never met one who said "no, just help me improve the dialogue, I don't care if the character arc sucks."

I don't know how you work - but when I did evaluations my objective was to break down the script and tell the writer what he needed to do - to reach a place where it was not just better - but good enough to actually have a shot of getting produced. Many writers didn't get to that place in one rewrite - but my goal was to give them tools to get there - to give them a thorough enough evaluation - not just what to do - but also guidance on how to do it, so they could return to the notes on successive drafts. I did this regardless of what level of the craft they were at - although with the less experienced writers - I'd include a lot of explanations and lots of examples.

I basically approached my notes the same way I approach a script in development. Regardless of where it was - I focused on the path to take it to where it needed to be.

I am not saying that the feedback on these boards can't be helpful - but I am saying that micro analysis of a few scenes is not the same thing and it cannot address the big-picture overall story issues. Those issues are extremely important and should not be overlooked. And encouraging understanding of things like dialogue without fostering understanding of the bigger elements of storytelling makes no sense to me - in fact - it's kinda backwards. In film school we studied the overall structure of story, character, etc., before we learned about things like diaogue or how to build a scene. You can sell a script with a great story and weak dialogue - you can't sell a lousy story no matter how great your bon mots are.

I know you mean well, Scripter - but I get the feeling that although you know some things, you think you know more than you actually do.

Oh come on Iwrite... quit with the "think you know more than you actually do" crap. Adding that little tidbit lessened the professionalism and credibility of an otherwise good, solid argument.

As a man once sang: "You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them."

Joe Calabrese said:

Oh come on Iwrite... quit with the "think you know more than you actually do" crap. Adding that little tidbit lessened the professionalism and credibility of an otherwise good, solid argument.

As a man once sang: "You got to know when to hold them, know when to fold them."

Click to expand...

I calls them as I sees them, Joe.

You want the good, you gotta take the bad and the snotty on occasion.

"a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, especially when the little bit's imparted as actual wisdom"
-paraphrasing something I read sometime somewhere.

Grandpappy used to say sometimes tis betta to keep yer mouth shut and have folks think your a fool, then to open it wide and prove 'em right.

My Grandpa taught me a different lesson

"Don't be afraid to point out a nude emperor"

IWrite said:

"Don't be afraid to point out a nude emperor"

Click to expand...

Only if you get a kick at looking at naked, fat old men.

For those of you who are thinking of answering my last post with a "then why are you here?" remark, I beat you to it.

Once, only once, have I gotten an indept analysis on a screenplay of mine for free.

It's the RARE soul who is going to give you that kind of quality feedback for free.

My main concern earlier on this thread was I slightly misunderstood Iwrite and I thought she was definitely saying people should use Linda Seger.

Otherwise, I mostly agree with her.

I don't want someone to read 2 pages of my script and decide they don't like it. I want someone to read the ENTIRE script, and give me a detailed analysis of the story, the pacing, the structure, the dialog, etc. It's why I paid a script consultant who was recommended to me by someone I know. And it's why I registered online for the UCLA screenwriting program (at the end of the certificate they analyze one script for free). I truly want to learn how to become the best screenwriter I can be.

Justino,

Are you the writer of "Mother in Law?"