Non-Standard Punctuation

Stunted said:

How do you guys feel about writers who use '?!'s, italics, capitols, ellipsis in non-dialogue, or whatever?

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How do we feel about the writers? Good luck to them. If they're published despite/because of the punctuation they've used, fine by me.

Stunted said:

Under what circumstances do you think it's appropriate?

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I don't think I would use a combination of ?! or !? in a story, although I have seen it done. Examples of the former can be found in Jose Eduardo Agualusa's The Book of Chameleons (2004) and examples of the latter in Jeff Noon's Vurt (1993). Both books did pretty well despite/because of the punctuation (who knows which).

On this forum the use of a plain old exclamation mark/point drives some people to hang up crosses on their front door, so a combination of exclamation mark and question mark would probably be seen as the first sign of the apocalypse. At some point you have to get what you've written past an editor. If that kind of combination makes sense and you can justify it, fine. I don't see it very often.

Italics are often used, and in different ways: sometimes for emphasis, sometimes for thoughts, sometimes just to make a distinction between a piece of text and the main text. My gut feel is that if it's used too often it can be distracting, but in published quality fiction I can't think of any time that I've found it distracting.

Cheers,
Rob

I don't think I'd ever use '?!' (the only place I can ever even imagine someone using it would be in dialogue - never in non-dialogue.) But I think there are other ways to get the point across.

Italics I think are good for emphasis on a particular word. I'm sure it could be overdone, but I've never really paid it much attention, to be honest. I don't think I'd put a word or phrase in all capitals except in dialogue, though. It usually indicates shouting. I don't actually tend to love reading things that use capitals excessively that way (with the exception of Harry Potter. JK Rowling uses capitals for shouting a lot, and it never bothered me.) But that may be a personal preference, I don't know.

Other punctuation should be used when it's necessary. Really, I think it's more important to write the best story you can write and not get so obsessed with punctuation that you forget what you're doing in the first place.

Stunted said:

How do you guys feel about writers who use '?!'s,

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I cringe.

Stunted said:

ellipsis in non-dialogue

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No problem if used where appropriate. For example, when the narrator begins to make a statement which he/she doesn't complete.

I get very picky about how things I read are set out purely because my brain can't cope if something isn't presented in a standard way. Thus I sound a little cranky when talking about this subject but only because when it comes to reading, these things slow me down.

Personally I think "!?" is failed punctuation, decide if it's an exclamation or a question and stick with it, don't go confusing my poor brain because of poor word and/or punctuation choices on your part.

Italics, capitols etc. Are fine in moderation but if overused I find it hard to read due to it taking my brain a few seconds to adjust every time you swap THE STYLE of text. In fact any section over a couple of lines that is written in anything other than standard print gets skipped till I finish the page then I might go back and read it.

That is not to say I disagree with them being used, for emphasis they are brilliant, but I feel they should only be used on single words or lines.

I'm not seeking publication so keep that in mind.

Stunted said:

The title may not be exactly right. How do you guys feel about writers who use '?!'s, italics, capitols, ellipsis in non-dialogue, or whatever? Under what circumstances do you think it's appropriate?

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?!--fine occasionally in dialogue if the characters are being particularly histrionic. (My characters are quite histrionic so "?!" and "!!" get used a lot.) In non-dialogue, it would stick out at me as very weird. Why would my uninvolved narrator be histrionic? An occasional exclamation mark maybe, but not "?!" or "!!."

Italics--fine in narration or dialogue when used properly. Sometimes you need them. *shrug* I use italics for emphasis, thoughts/telepathy, and occasionally to set something off as a flashback (though not often).

Capitals--more acceptable to me in dialogue than in narration, but I'm betting there are exceptions. This is for when characters are YELLING/SPEAKING LOUDLY or have ABNORMALLY LOUD VOICES. (My current WIP has a gigantic Thunderbird who has a very loud voice, so when he talks, it's in ALL CAPS.) I don't care for it much in narration as I just said since italics could apply just as effectively; why would my uninvolved narrator be yelling? (Though I often use italics, all caps, or a combination for sound effects.)

Ellipses--same as with italics. If they're needed in narration or dialogue, then they're needed. I use them when trailing off or to indicate extended pauses since I don't tend to omit things in writing unless I'm quoting something.

Please note these are merely my personal opinions and I'm not speaking in terms of other writers or publication. To be honest with you, based on my reading, "?!," "!!," and all caps are very rare (though they do exist). Italics and ellipses seem common.

I shan't defend my opinions here since they're just that, opinions, and the OP did ask what we think.

Stunted said:

I never like it when people put thoughts in italics.

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I have no problem with any sort of punctuation, so long as it doesn't pull me out of the story. A ?! probably would.

So. No theoretical objection, just a practical one.

Italics aren't needed for 'thoughts' and 'internals' as such. But Italic is the standard way to express Internal Monolgoue. Underlines and double or single quote marks have other uses and would be confusing.


I. Thoughts. No Italics.

George was edgy. He fingered his kriss and wondered how he was going to escape this time.


II. Internal Monologue. Italics.

George was edgy. He fingered his kriss. How the hell am I going to get out of this one?

If you use a different convention, be prepared to argue with your copyeditor.

Story and characters trump everything. But if you insist on using unconventional punctuation, you're adding extra roadblocks for yourself, and your ms. better be brilliant.

So why create more hurdles? Do that unconventional punctuation serve a purpose? Or are you just trying to be clever?

Have you ever read Saramago? He breaks every single punctuation rule known to man in his books. I haven't been able to finish any of his books, but I'll keep on trying.

If it's consistant, I'll get used to it... but even then, the grumpy English teacher/ writer in me will continually question why the heck the writer couldn't just do what everyone else does? THAT will pull me out of the story, without a doubt.

Not mentioned in the above question, but Angela's Ashes used NO quotes for the dialogue. It was very jarring and difficult for me to get through. (I started skimming...) And given that the guy became a teacher, it was extra irritating to read a book in this style.

I don't mind the !? so much, but it seems, I dunno, like something a kid would do. I usually go with "What?" she shrieked or something similar to convey that idea. If necessary. Usually, upon re-examination, I find that it's not necessary at all.

maestrowork said:

Story and characters trump everything. But if you insist on using unconventional punctuation, you're adding extra roadblocks for yourself, and your ms. better be brilliant.

So why create more hurdles? Do that unconventional punctuation serve a purpose? Or are you just trying to be clever?

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I've had to resist the urge to use ?! several times in my WIP for situations where a character is expressing disbelief at something in the action.

Instead, I've tried to find other ways for them to express it.

?! is not a real punctuation. If you can't express ! without using ! then you may want to brush up on how to write emotions. You don't need the ! to express disbelief; trust your character and context:

Jen told Maggie about the flying monkeys.

"Really? Oh my god, are you serious?"

I admire authors who like to play with how words look on the page. Adds a little spice for the reader, I think. Different fonts, italics, having words falling down the page, inventive punctuation, like "..." to quote someone's non-response. All taken in moderation, of course.

Nicole

maestrowork said:

So why create more hurdles? Do that unconventional punctuation serve a purpose? Or are you just trying to be clever?

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Exactly. These gimmicks almost always come across to me as . . . well . . . gimmicks. You better have a damgood reason, transparent to the reader, for doing so.

caw

What do I think when I see unconventional punctuation?

!?

...

?!

...

!!!

X-P

Stunted said:

The title may not be exactly right. How do you guys feel about writers who use '?!'s, italics, capitols, ellipsis in non-dialogue, or whatever? Under what circumstances do you think it's appropriate?

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Good question!? It got me thinking--well, if you consider what I do thinking--about how infrequently I see those marks, yet I don't know how I would respond to them until I saw a specific example.

In all...ahem...in all seriousness, though, I think a writer aught be careful with a 3rd person narrator whose voice becomes too strong of a story element (thus distracting from the story).

John Gardner's book about writing fiction is littered with hyphens and parenthesis, but then again it isn't fiction, it's non-fiction so his voice is allowed to come through.


Showy marks are detractions generally in fictional narration, however like I said earlier, an example might be in order before I condemn them.

Stunted said:

The title may not be exactly right. How do you guys feel about writers who use '?!'s, italics, capitols, ellipsis in non-dialogue, or whatever? Under what circumstances do you think it's appropriate?

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I can't see any reason to need ?! unless it's a crutch for weak writing.

Italics have pretty specific uses according to most style books.

Capitols...well, I like our main one in DC but I think our state one here in Wisconsin is actually prettier. Not sure how they impact writers though.

Ellipses have pretty specifics uses, too, and I think anything outside the norm is likely to pull the reader out of the story.

Beth

maestrowork said:

?! is not a real punctuation. If you can't express ! without using ! then you may want to brush up on how to write emotions. You don't need the ! to express disbelief; trust your character and context:

Jen told Maggie about the flying monkeys.

"Really? Oh my god, are you serious?"

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I read a lot of comic books as a kid, and ?! was on just about every page, so it etched itself in my head.

"What the hell is going on?!"

Humans are pattern-finders. We are sensitive to changes from an established norm. It's how our brains work. When something changes we try to figure out why. So anything at all that varies from the expected/default-- punctuation, voice, tense, person, style of narrative, chapter headings, word usage, font -- will cue readers to try to figure out why -- what it means, what it adds to the story, what it tells them about the world.

And if they can'tfigure it out, if it doesn't add to their experience of the story, they are wont to conclude that the writer does not know what they're doing.

I tend to use non-standard narrative forms because my stories call for them, but I try not to forget that I had better make them worth the reader's time

Ellipsis-abuse bugs me up the walls. To me, constant dot-dot-dotting is saying that the author can't bother to finish anything right. If it isn't worth the author's time to polish the work, then it isn't worth my time to read it. Double punctuation looks childish, goes in same wastebasket. It's like finding gritty things in every other bite of food.

Matera the Mad said:

Ellipsis-abuse bugs me up the walls. To me, constant dot-dot-dotting is saying that the author can't bother to finish anything right.

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I dunno . . . I kinda like it . . . ya know? . . . has a certain . . . rhythm . . .

caw

maestrowork said:

?! is not a real punctuation. If you can't express ! without using ! then you may want to brush up on how to write emotions. You don't need the ! to express disbelief; trust your character and context:

Jen told Maggie about the flying monkeys.

"Really? Oh my god, are you serious?"

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Agreed.