A Rumour of Angels

Jenny · Feb 6, 2009

I've just started reading "A Rumour of Angels" by Peter Berger. My undergrad degree was Sociology (and History) so the fact that this is a sociological book appeals to me/its style of reasoning is familiar. However, what startled me was his opening discussion on the term "supernatural" and how I could apply it to Christian writing.

Supernatural is an "assertion of belief that there is an other reality, and one of ultimate significance for man, which transcends the reality within which our everyday experience unfolds." Then he quotes Rudolf Otto regarding this "otherness" of religious experience: "the sacred is 'totally other' than ordinary, human phenomena, and in this 'otherness' the sacred impresses man as an overwhelming, awesome, and strangely fascinating power."

I thought about what writers are. We are, fundamentally, storytellers. Whether fact or fiction, and any genre, we weave words to communicate and provide meaning. Is it part of our responsibility to point out (though not always with a sledgehammer) that here is "other"? to provide a medium for its experience?

People want to encounter an "overwhelming, awesome, and strangely fascinating power". Vampires are this. Angels are. Have Christian storytellers let the glory of the supernatural (an experience of the "other") slip away from us so the secular world supplies the gap for our (potential, but lost) readers?

Guffy · Feb 7, 2009

Yes, the wonderful otherness that you speak of has been minimized in our churches since at least the 40s and 50s. I think we did this to ourselves because of a reaction to the growing rationality of science which started with the age of enlightenment. But today people will go 'out on a limb' seeking this supernatural aspect of our lives that seems to be woven into our very being. It's why we have cemeteries instead of trash heaps, and why we're willing to spend so much of our time and money on worthless monuments. Monuments are worthless in this physical reality but priceless in the sacred world of our spirituality. And I do believe that it is something that needs to emphasized in every aspect of our Christians lives, including writing.

Jenny · Feb 8, 2009

Monuments are worthless in this physical reality but priceless in the sacred world of our spirituality

Guffy, you've put words to a thought swimming at the back of my mind. Layers of meaning. The everyday, and the transcendant glimpsed through it. And living (including writing) in a way that values and shares both.

I'm still thinking through the idea that as a society we have trouble seeing the "otherness" of our existence. The idea (and the challenge of confronting it) fascinates me.

For instance, what images or stories can we tell to hint at God? I'm thinking of parables where God is a father, a farmer, a VIP. But also of poetry like "The Hound of Heaven". How can the "other" be encountered in a new way?

Guffy · Feb 8, 2009

It has to be something that crosses over the way that poetry is more that just words. It is the feeling we get when we stand in awe and marvel over a sunset for 1000th time. To use a word you used in another post, it is a resonance in our soul that comes from our spiritual selves that we can not be afraid to embrace.

Judg · Feb 8, 2009

C.S. Lewis used the word "numinous" to describe this kind of thing. And I think you're really on to something here. We should indeed be trying to capture this in our writing.

The trick is not to fall into cheap supernatural tricks, with deus ex machina solutions, where God waves a magic wand and solves the problems without our characters having to do much, learn much, grow much.

I tried really, really hard to strike that balance in my current novel. It remains to be seen whether I succeeded. But I think that we should be trying to convey that sense of wonder and awe in our works, for sure.

How would you go about it?

Jenny · Feb 9, 2009

Numinous. What a great word.

I'm not sure how we go about writing it. Perhaps it depends on what we write, where our talents lie.

In writing a romance, I guess its a revelation of love, the vulnerability and intimacy of encountering the other. In science fiction and fantasy, I can really stretch the images and experience of other. I enjoy thinking of these stories, though they don't always work. I'm turning one over in my mind where God (invisible, of course) goes around pushing over everyone in the world. The people are never hurt, but they experience physically the jolt of the other. Maybe poetry is the most direct communication of the experience of other.

Judg · Feb 9, 2009

I have a scene in which my main character encounters the numinous. He doesn't really know what to make of it, but it changes his life. It was one of the very hardest parts to write, and is about as close as I get to poetry. It's very hard to express in prosaic terms.

nevada · Feb 9, 2009

You know, I have never been in this subforum. Ever. but i was lured by the title of the thread. Any book that has an image of wings or angels, or the word angel in the title will always be picked up by me in the bookstore. So when I saw the title, of course I had to come here.

And then i find the word Numinous. Not a word or concept I have ever heard of, but now that i have i realize it would fit perfectly in my WIP for one of my main characters. Coincidence, synchronicity, call it what you will but if Jenny had not used that title in that thread I never would have come across Numinous. Thank you, Jenny.

Jenny · Feb 10, 2009

Glad to help, Nevada. Judg's intro of "numinous" was a gift for me, too. I love how AW discussions evolve -- even some of the train wrecks

Judg, I'm impressed you tackled the numinous and made it a critical turning point. Hat's off to you. It's scary trying to put something so intangible yet powerful into words.

Judg · Feb 11, 2009

Jenny, it was seriously some of the scariest writing I've ever done. I can hardly wait to see how people react.

Jenny · Feb 15, 2009

I'm sure they'll react with that touch of disconcertment which is part of experiencing the numinous, but they'll like it. I couldn't resist clicking on your blog link, and I agree so much with that balancing trick. People tend to put confidence and humility as opposites, but humility is knowing yourself. Sometimes we can write, even if publishers haven't shouted hallelujah's at our voice yet. Writers are strong on faith.

Robin Bayne · Feb 16, 2009

I read a book years ago by Philip Yancey called "Rumors of Another World" which had that same quality.

MarkR · Feb 23, 2009

Jenny said:
People want to encounter an "overwhelming, awesome, and strangely fascinating power". Vampires are this. Angels are. Have Christian storytellers let the glory of the supernatural (an experience of the "other") slip away from us so the secular world supplies the gap for our (potential, but lost) readers?

C. S. Lewis did write of Christianity being the true myth. I believe the "facinating power" of Vampires (and all mythology) ultimately comes from the "facinating power" of God.

Shamrockgreen · Mar 6, 2009

I am so glad I hit this genre and really read the posts! My current WIP is about a young woman who has supernatural gifts. I kept trying to explain the story to others, so I have just started calling it "christian fantasy" because after all Narina is termed fantasy and Lewis can write some so can I.

I have taken elements from the early church and wove them into this story, which I hope to spin off more stories from. I have always held to the fact that is you believe there is good (ie God) and then there has to be evil (ie Lucifer). Scripture tells us all these things, creation, man, then the Angels and fall of Lucifer and his minions. So why can't i have a MC that moves like Phillip did after he baptised the Ethopian, and MC's that raise the dead like Peter when the man fell out of the window listening to him preach, and that can heal like the early church believers.

Being a Christian is suppose to be supernatural, we are told "we are not of this world" we live in it, but are not suppose to be of it. So I have taken my MC's to a whole new level of living in the "world" . The big thing I will have when I am done is where to submit when I finished. I like the way it is turning out though.

MarkR · Mar 14, 2009

My six-year-old son told me he found a secret passage in our house that leads directly to the presence of God.

I agree with you Shamrockgreen, and my experience with God has been full of the supernatural. Many have been healed and even raised from the dead in modern times. Very little is is written about it.

Red.Ink.Rain · Mar 15, 2009

This is why it saddens me that fantasy and sci-fi is so minimal in Christian publishing. These genres can reflect the beauty and the awesome power of God, yet most people see it as evil. If you took the book of Acts or pieces of the new testament, gave the prophets and disciples different names...the book would probably be rejected by major Christian publishers. Because it's not easy. It's not understandable. So it's rejected, and secular writers and publishers pick up the ideas of angels and demons and vampires and use them instead.

What are Christians doing with myth and fantasy and fairy tales?

Sadly - next to nothing.

Juneluv12 · Mar 15, 2009

I thought I'd stop by and post since my current YA novel is about angels in earthbound form trying to help lost souls in high school. I was told to label it "Urban Fantasy" although some argue that it isn't fantasy because it doesn't deal with vampires, witches, etc.(which is why I got the idea in the first place!

I would highly recommend Billy Graham's book Angels. I read it many years ago when I wrote a paper in my Argumentative Writing class many years ago about the existance of angels.

BTW: Where are all the Christian YA agents? There seems to be a stumbling block on this. Either you have to have had books published, unsolicited queries not accepted, etc. I would think there is a market out there for Christian YA. I mean I'm not wanting to necessarily target any particular audience, secular or Christian, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot out there. I've almost got a catch twenty-two because some say it won't make it in the Christian market because of some of the thematic elements, and then that it's too Christian to make it in the secular markets. Lovely!

Shamrockgreen · Mar 15, 2009

Juneluv12 said:
I thought I'd stop by and post since my current YA novel is about angels in earthbound form trying to help lost souls in high school. I was told to label it "Urban Fantasy" although some argue that it isn't fantasy because it doesn't deal with vampires, witches, etc.(which is why I got the idea in the first place!

I would highly recommend Billy Graham's book Angels. I read it many years ago when I wrote a paper in my Argumentative Writing class many years ago about the existance of angels.

BTW: Where are all the Christian YA agents? There seems to be a stumbling block on this. Either you have to have had books published, unsolicited queries not accepted, etc. I would think there is a market out there for Christian YA. I mean I'm not wanting to necessarily target any particular audience, secular or Christian, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot out there. I've almost got a catch twenty-two because some say it won't make it in the Christian market because of some of the thematic elements, and then that it's too Christian to make it in the secular markets. Lovely!

Try this link and give a read....it might fit your novel. It doesn't hurt to query at least you will know whether your book will fit their criteria.
http://www.eharlequin.com/articlepage.html?articleId=1403&chapter=0
Not sure if your story has a romantic element or not....

I found this site yesterday.
http://www.marcherlordpress.com/Write_For_MLP.htm

MarkR · Mar 15, 2009

I wonder about publishers when it comes to the miraculous...

I had an idea for a serious novel. Two women meet at an HIV support group. First woman stuck it through a marriage to a cheating husband who died of AIDS and left her HIV positive. Second woman is an active drug user. First woman leads second woman to Christ. Second woman then gets delivered of her addictions and healed of HIV. First woman has to deal with her feelings about God's justice as she begins dieing of AIDS.

What genre is this?

The miraculous power of God is usually just a source of comedy:

Fighting Temptations with Cuba Gooding and Beyonce said:
Coming up soon, going to be the Five Blind Boys from Alabama. Uh, used to be six of them, but one of them got healed. He's the driver now, and they need him, 'cause, well, they kept hitchhiking the wrong way.

Red.Ink.Rain · Mar 15, 2009

Juneluv12 said:
I would highly recommend Billy Graham's book Angels. I read it many years ago when I wrote a paper in my Argumentative Writing class many years ago about the existance of angels.

BTW: Where are all the Christian YA agents? There seems to be a stumbling block on this. Either you have to have had books published, unsolicited queries not accepted, etc. I would think there is a market out there for Christian YA. I mean I'm not wanting to necessarily target any particular audience, secular or Christian, but it doesn't seem like there's a lot out there. I've almost got a catch twenty-two because some say it won't make it in the Christian market because of some of the thematic elements, and then that it's too Christian to make it in the secular markets. Lovely!

Isn't that frustrating? I'm planning on writing an urban fantasy/Christian YA about five kids who are involved in near-death experiences and, afterward, they can see angels and demons. I'm really excited about it, but I have no idea where it's going to fit.

Sometimes it seems like both the Christian and secular market are just so close-minded.

Deb Kinnard · Mar 15, 2009

@Mark R: women's fic. Probably aimed at the CBA market, but I'm not sure if anyone's tackling HIV issues other than Karen Kingsbury, whose stuff I don't care for. Definitely women's fic though IMO.

@Red: I hope you sell this story. Right now it seems hard to get the C-fic pubs to accept practically everything that doesn't have a bonnet on the cover.

DustyBooks · Mar 21, 2009

Or someone who would be wearing a bonnet, if she had a head.

Judg said:
I have a scene in which my main character encounters the numinous. He doesn't really know what to make of it, but it changes his life. It was one of the very hardest parts to write, and is about as close as I get to poetry. It's very hard to express in prosaic terms.

Cool! I'm wondering about this too. One of my characters will soon encounter the numinous on a more mundane level, but that still stops him in his tracks.

I don't want to chalk all that AWE up to bigness of horizon and smallness of ship.

Captain Marryat's observation (in The King's Own, 1830--sometimes his wording is a bit strange):

It is through His works that the Almighty is most sincerely reverenced, through them that His infinite power is with deepest humility acknowledged. The most forcible arguments, the most pathetic eloquence from the pulpit, will not affect so powerfully the mind of man, as the investigation of a blade of grass, or the mechanism of the almost imperceptible insect. If, then, such is the effect upon mankind in general, how strong must be the impressions of those who occupy their business in the great waters! These men "see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep." They behold Him in all His magnificence, in all His beauty, in all His wrath, in all His vastness, in all His variety. Unassisted by theory, they practically feel that God is great, and their worship...is sincere.

Jenny · Dec 3, 2009

Judg, I wanted to say thank you to introducing the word "numinous" into my world. It's rattled around in my brain for a while, spawning an attempt at an urban fantasy novel and a blog (shameless plug).

I haven't posted here for a while, but I had to resurrect this thread to say thank you. I have so much to thank AW for--help, advice and a sense of connection to other writers.

I guess the "rumour of angels" is true.

Kweei · Dec 3, 2009

Hmm, I never come into this subforum, but the title caught my eye. I tend to write about angels and other supernatural creatures, as well as mythic and religious themes. I find this is a fascinating discussion.

Maybe there is another a thread for this, but what is the line between fantasy, which is what I tend to label my writing, and Christian fantasy?

Judg · Dec 3, 2009

Very cool, Jenny. It was fun to reread this for me too.

KL, Christian fantasy would include in some way, an inclusion of God, either directly or symbolically, in the story. I mean an orthodox understanding of God, of course, not Norse deities or something. Too often it's allegorical, but not always.

The Chronicles of Narnia is probably the best-known example.

A Rumour of Angels

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A day on the skeet range helps the frustration

Not your kid brother's YA

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