When to introduce the villain?

Geraint · Jan 21, 2009

Hello all, can you help me out with a writing dilemma? All opinions welcome!

I've worked out a plot for a fantasy series to span perhaps 3 or 4 books. I have in mind a character who will eventually emerge as the main enemy/arch-villain, but my main characters aren't going to interact with him at all in book 1. So I thought it might be a good idea to flag him up at the start, in an ominous prologue, even though he won't actually feature in the main story until a later book. But now I've tried this, it doesn't seem convincing - it feels contrived, like the trial scene at the beginning of the Superman film, i.e. entirely detached from the rest of the story and only there to set up the sequel. Any thoughts or opinions? If you've read fantasy novels which have started in this way, do you think it works? Or conversely, if the main bad guy doesn't even get a mention until he turns up in book 2 or 3, will the reader feel cheated?

Makai_Lightning · Jan 21, 2009

I personally wouldn't have a prologue just to introduce a villian if he's not showing up in the book at hand. It's a case where you make the reader ask, "Why should I care?" It's more likely to cause confusion than to clear it up, on the placement. Besides which, I'm a firm believer that each book should be able to stand on it's own, for it's own merit; that means, your first goal is to make each book it's best, which means cutting things that don't need to be in that book. Some things, you'd need, but if it's a continueing storyline that's fine--not everything can be tied up at the end anyway. But if your evil character simply has no real reason to be there yet, then unless you can work him in as a character some other way or forshadow things, I don't think you need a prologue setting him up yet--unless whatever's happening in the prologue has direct effect on your current plot. Then it's still debateable, but you might have more merit for it.

Diana Hignutt · Jan 21, 2009

When to introduce the villain is simple: When the flow of the story calls for it, no sooner, no later. If you're introducing the villain, it must be to move the story forward. If the villain's presence isn't required by the flow of the story, then they must wait for the proper time to begin their villainy. There that was helpful, wasn't it?

dwellerofthedeep · Jan 21, 2009

I agree with Diana that it varies from story to story.

I've read somewhere that the sooner the protagonist and the villain meet the more tension the story can have.

I think that is true to some extent, but there are other ways to increase tension and depending on the manner of villain it might be hard to have him/her meet the hero too early. This is sci-fi/fantasy though, so maybe a view of the villain from a distance, or a non-confrontational meeting would work.

When you introduce the villain could also vary based on how important the villain is. If the villain is fairly minor and his/her antagonism is not the most important part of the story than they don't need to be around as much. Of course, introducing the villain without him/her meeting the hero is a decent idea too, especially if you want to introduce the villain through good qualities first and they are enemies with the hero from the start.

Anyway, I love villains of all kinds. The book I'm editing now has 3-4 villains introduced in different ways but I think this post is getting long enough so if you want examples I can come back later.

ChaosTitan · Jan 21, 2009

If your villain doesn't show up until book two, where does your conflict in book one come from?

zornhau · Jan 21, 2009

Make the villain's presence felt in book 1, but in a sort of background way. E.g., characters curse the Evil overlord's new taxes, which make unicorn farming (themain plot) even harder.

Nivarion · Jan 21, 2009

or if they are dealing with another minor villan, and the villan is just a lacky henchman of the main villan, then introduce him through lines simillar to "My boss" and such.

dclary · Jan 21, 2009

I've read somewhere that the sooner the protagonist and the villain meet the more tension the story can have.

Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker see each other for the first time at the end of the second act.

William Wallace never meets Edward Longshanks.

Frodo and Sam never meet either Saruman nor Sauron.

eyeblink · Jan 21, 2009

Come to that, Harry Lime turns up over an hour into The Third Man. But he's foreshadowed considerably up to then. The danger would be to introduce a major character (particularly a viewpoint character) too late on with no prior build-up - if you're not careful the gear-shift the reader will have to do might kill their interest. "Who is this new character and why should I care?"

Smiling Ted · Jan 21, 2009

Geraint said:
Hello all, can you help me out with a writing dilemma? All opinions welcome!

I've worked out a plot for a fantasy series to span perhaps 3 or 4 books. I have in mind a character who will eventually emerge as the main enemy/arch-villain, but my main characters aren't going to interact with him at all in book 1. So I thought it might be a good idea to flag him up at the start, in an ominous prologue, even though he won't actually feature in the main story until a later book. But now I've tried this, it doesn't seem convincing - it feels contrived, like the trial scene at the beginning of the Superman film, i.e. entirely detached from the rest of the story and only there to set up the sequel. Any thoughts or opinions? If you've read fantasy novels which have started in this way, do you think it works? Or conversely, if the main bad guy doesn't even get a mention until he turns up in book 2 or 3, will the reader feel cheated?

Since we don't know anything about what happens in your story, we can't really answer your question in a meaningful way...no matter how strong our opinions.

But if your villain really has nothing to do with your characters in the first book...then focus on the first book and finish it. Once you've actually written "the end," you will have answered this question (and others) for yourself. And if you need to go back and make changes, you can do so.

badducky · Jan 21, 2009

I think the notion of "Villian" is quite not the right way to view things, these days.

Everyone is the hero in their own fantasy.

My favorite example of how to do it right, at the moment, is David Anthony Durham's "Acacia". Every character that makes a choice of evil does so because they believe it is the way to achieve their own greatness, or great ends. Every betrayal is an act of heroism. (Okay, almost every betrayal... Still, check the book out, and notice how every bad guy could easily be the hero in a different book.)

I think, as to your original question, Diana gave you the right answer. To which, I hope I expanded upon adequately.

Geraint · Jan 21, 2009

Fantastic, thanks everyone. This has all helped considerably and made things crystal clear for me (amazingly so, considering that none of you knows any details of my story, Ted!) I know the score now: let the villain arrive in his own time and not before. Thanks Makai & Diana, & all of you in fact - I though everyone was very consistent on this. ChaosTitan, I already have another villain to create the tension in any case, which should be quite enough for one book, so I'll save the second one until it makes sense to bring him in. I agree with Eyeblink too, but I've got plenty of chapters before I even need to start foreshadowing him. And yes badducky, I agree a credible "villain" needs to have an honourable justification for his actions in his own mind (I used the word "villain" as I couldn't think of anything better - I kicked myself afterwards for not thinking of "antagonist").

This site is great - I can definitely see myself becoming a regular.

Stunted · Jan 21, 2009

I would be annoyed if a huge new villain showed up in the second book. I don't know what the solution would be.

dwellerofthedeep · Jan 21, 2009

dclary said:
Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker see each other for the first time at the end of the second act.

William Wallace never meets Edward Longshanks.

Frodo and Sam never meet either Saruman nor Sauron.

And I said there are other ways to build tension. I meant plenty of other ways, but having the villain and hero face to face from page one is one of them.

Mr Flibble · Jan 21, 2009

Thing is with those example - though they don't meet till later ( if at all) the threat of them is there almost from the off. The reader / viewer knows about them, knows the threat they pose to the protags.

They don't need to meet for tension- but maybe they need to be aware. The antag has to be doing something to thwart the protags.

dclary · Jan 21, 2009

dwellerofthedeep said:
And I said there are other ways to build tension. I meant plenty of other ways, but having the villain and hero face to face from page one is one of them.

I was agreeing with you.

MattW · Jan 21, 2009

Page 37.

Or earlier. Perhaps later.

But definitely on page 37. Give or take.

kristin724 · Jan 21, 2009

Its not sf/f, but I can tell you what not to do. In the last few Sharpe novels by Bernard Cornwell, he's introduced the villian's pov in the last fifty pages in the final battle. That's a little late!

I imagine as soon as the story demands it would make sense. When you can't provide his information any other way but to present him.

HeronW · Jan 21, 2009

If there's no antagonist (A)--where is the conflict for the protagonist (P)?

Yes, P can have inner turmoil, be confronting nature, staving off anciliary wars, etc, but I like a P with as equal or greater A. Maybe A is manipulating others to attack P, or has the wherewithall to influence weather or minds and these cause P to try and overcome different acts. P may not know who/what A is or link the various troubles until the end.

geardrops · Jan 21, 2009

Stunted said:
I would be annoyed if a huge new villain showed up in the second book. I don't know what the solution would be.

Didn't much care for Emperor Palpatine, did you?

Pthom · Jan 21, 2009

What about a tiny new villain?

Ruv Draba · Jan 22, 2009

Geraint said:
I've worked out a plot for a fantasy series to span perhaps 3 or 4 books.

Geraint, can you write one good novel yet? If you can, then you should surely know where the conflict in book 1 comes from. You wouldn't need to ask the villain question.

If you can't, then is it wise to spread your story ideas across four books? Might you be better off selecting your best ideas and putting them into one good book?

Darzian · Jan 22, 2009

My WIP is projected to be 75K. I'm on 40K and the villain hasn't appeared yet. He's going to appear soon but no one's going to realize he's the villain. I think it's the best possible way to write this story. He comes when he comes.

Also, if this is your first novel, I DO advise planning a stand alone (with series potential if necessary).

zornhau · Jan 22, 2009

dclary said:
Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker see each other for the first time at the end of the second act.

William Wallace never meets Edward Longshanks.

Frodo and Sam never meet either Saruman nor Sauron.

Yes, but they do act. Star Wars doesn't open with a prologue showing how evil Darth Vader is.

Geraint · Jan 22, 2009

Ruv Draba said:
is it wise to spread your story ideas across four books? Might you be better off selecting your best ideas and putting them into one good book?

Thanks RD (and Darzian), I'm sure that's very sensible advice. And if I'd discovered AW a few years back I'm sure I would have taken it. But I'm afraid I'm in too deep now, after a good few years of turning the plot over in my head and sketching out all sorts of scenes and events... I really can't now imagine condensing it into one book - I think I'd find it easier to write an entirely new novel! (Which might not be a bad idea - a sort of prequel to the series in my head...)

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