Contractions in ancient Rome

Cinzia8 · Nov 17, 2008

Hi all,

I'm wondering what you all think about using contractions in dialogue for historical characters? Ex. "My lady, I'll accept your challenge." or "My lady, I will accept your challenge." Do you think contractions sound less formal? Most historical and historical romance novels use them.

Deleted member 42 · Nov 17, 2008

Use them in dialog, by all means.

Write as your characters think and speak, when you are presenting their thoughts and words.

Doogs · Nov 17, 2008

They certainly sound less formal.

My novels are set in the late 3rd century B.C. Roman Republic, and I use them frequently, save for formal occasions such as Senate meetings and the like.

I realize this isn't technically correct. Latin verb conjugations take person and tense into account in a way modern English does not. But the goal is readability and accessibility, and if we stayed 100% true to classical Latin we'd be stuck with some crazy-ponderous sentences.

That, and in many instances I've found contractions sound perfectly normal, while more formal language sounds woefully out of place. For example, a centurion exhorting his men with "let's go!" versus "let us go!".

AyJay · Nov 17, 2008

Totally agree with Medievalist and Doogs. I'm working on a fantasy novel set in ancient greece and wrote my first draft with tons of formal dialogue, thinking it would make the novel more historically accurate. But it's so distracting and dull to read. I think that if you create a vivid setting, you can get away with contractions and even some well-chosen slang. Using some colloquial expressions also helps to differentiate the characters.

Puma · Nov 18, 2008

I agree 100% - and I don't think it matters what the location or time period, the writing has to be comfortable to modern readers. A little bit of stilted in formal situations goes a long way (but adds all important flavor.) Puma

funidream · Nov 18, 2008

I agree with all the above - contractions are more natural, and unless you are dealing with a formal situation or a character you are presenting in a formal way, you should feel free to use them. I am always amused by Hollywood's presentation of ancient Rome, where the patricians have the more educated, upper class English accent, vs. the foot soldiers and plebs, who speak with a working class accent - that distinction works.

tehuti88 · Nov 18, 2008

I find contractions less formal, but who's to say everybody in ancient Rome was formal?

Don't use contractions for the characters who want (or are conditioned) to sound more formal. Do use them for characters who are less formal. Simple as that.

I write about some ancient societies, and there are admittedly fewer contractions overall, but some people still use them--when they're not being all stiff and formal and stuff.

pdr · Nov 18, 2008

Yes, well...

tons of formal dialogue, thinking it would make the novel more historically accurate. But it's so distracting and dull to read.

Nope, that doesn't work. What we forget is that until very recently most societies had both formal and informal speech. Thus in a formal situation there might well be fewer contractions, but it is the structure of the sentences which changes, not just contractions added or deleted.

Clio · Nov 18, 2008

Like the rest of the posters, I have absolutely no objection to using contractions. I am writing in first person and tend to use them when my character is 'talking to herself' or telling us the tale, etc.

But I can also agree with PDR's distinction above. Certain occasions/speeches require a more formal type of language. For instance, an Emperor addressing the People, or Cicero giving us one of his famed speeches, would probably use formal language throughout. Take Cicero home to his wife, however, and have them converse on the dining couch, and their everyday conversation may be full of contractions.

If you can hear the dialogue in your head, you will get a feel for when to use contractions and when not to. It's a matter of experience, and of occasion.

Corpus Thomisticum · Dec 23, 2008

One question that comes to mind is, and I don't know enough of Roman society to know, but would a Roman have used the expression, "My lady..."? I don't speak Latin at all, but just curious.

Teleute · Dec 24, 2008

Corpus Thomisticum said:
One question that comes to mind is, and I don't know enough of Roman society to know, but would a Roman have used the expression, "My lady..."? I don't speak Latin at all, but just curious.

I'm pretty sure they wouldn't. People addressed each other by name, or by "hey you" if they didn't know each other's name, and that was never considered rude (at least amongst social equals). BUT people called each other "My dear Julia" or "Most honorable Brutus" or whatever if they were friends. (I think that anyone who used an expression like that with a person they didn't know would be considered brownnosing in the extreme, unless the addressee was the emperor or proconsul or something.)

I don't know what a pleb would call a patrician though. Servants/slaves called their masters "dominus/a."

(My Latin is very rusty, I could be wrong about this.)

Doogs · Dec 24, 2008

Corpus Thomisticum said:
One question that comes to mind is, and I don't know enough of Roman society to know, but would a Roman have used the expression, "My lady..."? I don't speak Latin at all, but just curious.

Great question, and one I've grappled with in my own writing. In strictly historical terms - i.e. if you were to travel back in time and listen in on a few conversations - I don't know.

For the purposes of writing to a modern audience, however, I think it makes perfect sense. Rome had a highly defined class structure, and I think "my lady" fits better than, say, "ma'am".

My own use of "my lady" or "Lady [insert name]" is somewhat fluid, but is basically used as a mark of respect for the women (and especially matrons) of the Roman aristocracy.

For a woman of the Roman aristocracy, my rules are as follows:

Older relatives (grandparents, parents, etc) would call her by her name - "Papiria"
Husband would call her by her name - "Papiria"
Younger relatives would call her by the relation - "mama", "Aunt Papiria", etc.
In-laws would call her by her name - "Papiria"
Family friends would call her by her name - "Papiria"
Non-family women of same social standing would call her by her name - "Papiria"
Non-family men of same social standing would use "lady" as a mark of respect - "my lady" or "Lady Papiria"
Persons of lower classes would use "lady" as a mark of respect - "my lady" or "Lady Papiria"
Slaves would use domina

I realize this probably isn't 100% historically accurate, but it does an excellent job conveying social status and the esteem in which aristocratic Roman matrons were held.

fullbookjacket · Dec 25, 2008

Here's the best lesson I've yet seen on Roman grammar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vsawP_Ew0r4

GirlWithPoisonPen · Dec 25, 2008

I agree on the contractions. Latin doesn't have them, but English does, so you should use them.

Have you read I, Claudius by Robert Graves? I'd take a look at it and see what he does. That book is beautifully written.

Languages like French and Spanish still have formal tenses. You always use "vous" (formal you) with someone until they say you can use "tu" (or they are a small child).

Contractions in ancient Rome

Cinzia8

Deleted member 42

Doogs

AyJay

Luv's Conscript

Puma

Retired and loving it!

funidream

tehuti88

Mackinac Island Fanatic

pdr

Clio

In the mind warp pavilion

Corpus Thomisticum

Life Stares Back at Me

Teleute

Skeptic

Doogs

fullbookjacket

GirlWithPoisonPen

Mata Hari